Bad teachers or the system

[PrettyBoy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkUjRGnFUe8

What do you guys think?

[1908Revelations]

PB I have slow ass dial up, so I will have to watch it at school tomorrow. I saw like 2 minutes of it, before my computer started acting crazy. So, I will have to check it out later!

However I can assume where this documentary is headed. If I had to place more blame on a particular party given the choices you gave I would have to say the system. I say that becasue you can have a dynamic teacher, but if he/she does not have a support system (admins, parents, students) who care, then there is not much that teacher can do. Yes that teacher can still be effective in his/her environment, but envolved parents who support that teachers' classroom management, along with administrators who support the classroom management and carry out effective discipline strategies will prove to be great. I am not seasoned in education, but I know what I see and what I work with.

[neosoul]

I miss the days when corporal punishment was mandatory in school

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by neosoul

I miss the days when corporal punishment was mandatory in school

My parents didn't need corporal punishment in schools.

ETA
They [My parents] would beat my ass if I showed out period!

[JonInKC]

The teachers that I wanted to spank me never would.

[neosoul]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

My parents didn't need corporal punishment in schools. They would beat my ass if I showed out period!

that NEVER stopped my mama from bringing out the wooden spoon

Hell forget the woode spoon.....my dad use to make us go pick a tree switch fromt he tree outback ........oh yeah that stung!



It is a little of both. As a parent i can see both sides. back when we were all in school ( 1970's/80s.... ok some of us more than others.....age) yes we had corp punishment to toe the line, but we also had great teachers, awesome adminstrations and PTAs/PTOs that were strong in numbers that supported the schools and the teachers. It also left the teachers able to accomplish one thing......the ability to teach!.

Teachers today are thrown so much crap their way to accomplishment in short amt of time because of all the policy and procedures, mandates and of course we cannot leave out no child let behind ......A teacher with a classroom the size of 25 plus it is hard to accomplish the daily task of teaching effectively. it is hard to blame a teacher when she or he do not recieve the support that truly isn't there.

However, on the flip side we do need to hold them accountable. Classroom management is truly an enviorment thing. I aide in my son Matt's class 1 to 2 times a week and his class is a a big class....24 kids. She knows how to get their attention and hold it and she knows time managment well. It is those teachers who should be commended.

I worry about those teachers who dont have parent support or who do and still dont know how to effectively teach. I am blessed to have a great teacher this yr for my son. a lot of the upper grade teachers are brand new and my concern is how effective are they.

[VAgirl18]

the following is probably going to get me in trouble on here... but here's my OPINION.

the educational system in america needs to be reformed. an education should be available to everyone, but not everyone is meant to go beyond high school. there are too many people that i know who should NEVER have gotten into college. so here's one of my ideas..

have kids decide if they want to go to a trade school or a regular high school. many of the people i know that didn't go to college hated high school and barely made it through. they'd be more successful and useful to society if they'd learned a trade. there are many illegal immigrants doing work in the US because people refuse to take the lower paying jobs and are content living on welfare or off of mommy and daddy. there are jobs available and so many americans refuse to work low paying jobs because they think that its beneath them. what did your parents and grandparents do?? if it were the 1950s and you were able to get a job at the mill for peanuts, you'd be happy.

i'm sure there's more i can say on this, but not without really ranting or anything, so i'll leave it at that.

[Dionysus]

Spankings are overrated and are not the magic bullet like so many people claim. I got MANY as a kid, and I still misbehaved.

[1908Revelations]

I somewhat agree with you on the fact about trade schools. Where I seem to have an issue with that is, we start HS at the age of 14 or 15. I don't think 14 year olds should make a decision saying, "I know I'm not going to college, so I want to focus on a trade not academics." Then 2 or 3 years down the line they want to attend college, they will not have a strong academic basis. I do think that traditional HS (academics based) should still be first, however the electives should be revamped to focus on a trade for those who choose to do so. My HS (years before I attended) had a computer programming elective which students were allowed to progress and get certifications (like A++) granted they passed the test, but they still had academics.

[1908Revelations]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Spankings are overrated and are not the magic bullet like so many people claim. I got MANY as a kid, and I still misbehaved.

I don't think spankings are a magic bullet, but parents have to find consequences that work for their child. I didn't get many spnakings, b/c I knew what was expected of me and the consequence I would be choosing should I misbehave.

[KSig RC]

We have a large number of teachers here on Greekchat, so hopefully we can draw some out here . . . unfortunately, I think my points won't really resonate well with them. That's fine - tell me where I'm wrong and we'll go from there.

First, I feel like most complaints I hear about NCLB are both baseless and misdirected. Forcing teacher (and student) accountability is not a problem in and of itself - and while there are certainly some well-documented issues with standardized testing, no one will disagree that there should be some measurement of success on the part of both the student and the teacher.

Second, teachers probably do not get enough support - but that support must come from the school and administration. Parents are not always a reliable source of educational support, and this is not a new phenomenon.

Third, teachers may be slightly underpaid, but it is not an endemic problem - however, we can't have it both ways. By this I mean that if we pay teachers like insurance adjusters, we should expect the quality of college grad that becomes a teacher to approximately equal that of an insurance adjuster. Most MENSA candidates can find much more lucrative employment than teaching - it's a catch-22. At no point in past history were teachers paid the same as doctors, lawyers, or CEOs - to pretend otherwise is insane. Also, teaching is not a 12-month-a-year job for the overwhelming majority of teachers, no matter how much planning time you require personally - this has to be considered. I'm sorry, teachers, but it does.

I would argue that the largest problem with our current school system setup is that it is top-heavy - there are too many superfluous administrators, and they are largely inept at dealing with actual problems. It is a sea of red tape and middle management, with very little of this time or money filtering to the teachers (and thus students).

School funding is not as much of a problem as school spending.

This is similar to problems with failing companies in the private sector - there are entire industries dedicated to consulting and saving these types of companies. There are methods and lessons out there.

NCLB is not the problem.

[1908Revelations]

KSig RC, let me ask what you think about ESL/ELL (English Language Learners) taking standardized test?

The students go to their ESL/ELL classes, but when they take standardized test they are not allowed any help. That is a part of the inclusion of ALL atudents that NCLB brought. Many of the students who would be able to recieve more help in self-contained classrooms are not getting more focused help in the general ed classrooms. These students take the standardized test and often fail them miserably. It is not that the ESL/ELL students are stupid, but they do not understand what is on the test. We can't blame the ESL/ELL teachers b/c the students are only with the teacher for a portion of the day. When they go home they are likely speaking which ever is thier native language, not to mention they are speaking these languages all summer. Many of the ESL/ELL students know functional English which is not good enough for testing. The horrible test scored are factored in with the rest of the school and then some schools can't meet AYP goals.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 1908Revelations

KSig RC, let me ask what you think about ESL/ELL (English Language Learners) taking standardized test?

The students go to their ESL/ELL classes, but when they take standardized test they are not allowed any help. That is a part of the inclusion of ALL atudents that NCLB brought. Many of the students who would be able to recieve more help in self-contained classrooms are not getting more focused help in the general ed classrooms. These students take the standardized test and often fail them miserably. It is not that the ESL/ELL students are stupid, but they do not understand what is on the test. We can't blame the ESL/ELL teachers b/c the students are only with the teacher for a portion of the day. When they go home they are likely speaking which ever is thier native language, not to mention they are speaking these languages all summer. Many of the ESL/ELL students know functional English which is not good enough for testing. The horrible test scored are factored in with the rest of the school and then some schools can't meet AYP goals.

I agree that this portion may need rethinking - however, I think there are multiple issues here. First, we may need to rethink our definitions of "functional" English, and whether ESL classes are structured properly to encourage their desired outcome (which should be 'mastery of English for education and living' - note 'education' there).

Second, according to the stated goals of NCLB, these statistics are included both as part of the overall school, and then also broken out by race and ESL status for reporting purposes. If focus and funding do not recognize this, it's obviously a problem with how NCLB is being implemented (and how the district is responding).

This creates a chicken-and-egg scenario, I'll agree - it's hard to say whether testing creates a problem or identifies a problem, but I can see how this specific scenario is troubling. However, it's not hopeless.

[SydneyK]

Isn't it the system's responsibility to ensure it hires non-bad teachers? (I'd say good teachers, but there's a gap between good and bad teachers and I want to include the teachers in said gap.)

If so, then it's the system's fault regardless.