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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.

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Old 04-16-2003, 05:06 PM
BSUPhiSig'92 BSUPhiSig'92 is offline
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E mail transcript between a chapter president and the father of a pledge

I just received this on the AFA (Association of Fraternity Advisors) listserv. I thought it was interesting.

ASJA LAW AND POLICY REPORT
Wednesday April 16, 2003
No. 97


************************************************** ****
ASJA Law and Policy Report (LPR) is written by Gary Pavela (gpavela@umd.edu)
and published weekly (except mid December to mid January, and the month of
August). Copyright: ASJA and Gary Pavela: All rights reserved. Further
transmission within ASJA member institutions is permitted, if the author and
ASJA are credited as the source. Index, archives, and additional source
materials will be available to ASJA members at http://asja.tamu.edu. The
information and comments provided here are designed to encourage discussion
and analysis. They represent the views of the authors not ASJA and do not
constitute legal advice. For legal advice the services of an attorney in
your jurisdiction should be sought.
************************************************** ****

TOPICS IN THIS ISSUE

[] 03.18: Correspondence: Parent and fraternity president dialogue

************************************************** ****

03.18 FRATERNITIES


*Correspondence: Parent and fraternity president dialogue*


A parent (pseudonym Beckett Smith) has shared with LPR a recent exchange of
e-mail correspondence between him and the student president of a fraternity
chapter at a major state university. The messages relate to an initial
decision by Mr. Smith's son Michael [pseudonym] to pledge the fraternity.
Mr. Smith grew increasingly concerned as Michael told him details about the
pledging process, including hazing (including forced calisthenics and
pouring liquids on the pledges), heavy demands on the pledges to perform
services for the brothers, and an emphasis on drinking. Mr. Smith's concerns
were relayed by Michael to the fraternity president, who initiated the
correspondence.


We've made significant alterations in the fraternity president's messages,
both to preserve his confidentiality and to protect his work product.
Although the fraternity president's basic themes are accurately portrayed,
readers should regard the version below as a composite of what similar
messages might contain. A few key passages are directly cited, with
quotation marks. The parent's words appear exactly as written, with minor
alterations to protect the identities of the parties.


This is an unusual item for us to publish. We think it provides insights
into the relationship between students, parents, fraternities, and
universities. Please consider the following questions:


[] Has this parent overstepped his bounds? Won't his son learn more by
handling the situation himself?


[] Do students and their parents have an accurate understanding of the risks
and benefits of fraternity life? Do they know the right questions to ask?
How can college administrators better inform them?


[] Do university administrators have any responsibility to ask fraternity
leaders the kinds of questions this parent asked? If administrators don't
ask such questions (and verify the answers) are they helping fraternities
mislead prospective members and families?


[] Can this exchange of correspondence be used in training or orientation
exercises on your campus? If so, how?


Send us your thoughts about any or all of these questions by Monday April
21. If we have enough responses we'll publish them next week. Our address:
gpavela@umd.edu.



FROM THE FRATERNITY PRESIDENT


Greetings. My name is Jeff Jones [pseudonym] and I am the President and Rush
Chairman of ZZP fraternity [fictional name] at State U. Your son Michael and
I have discussed the concerns expressed by you and Mrs. Smith have about
your son's involvement in our chapter. I understand your concerns, but I
wanted you to know what an asset Michael is to our house and for you to
better understand the values we believe in.


First, your son is a wonderful person. I am not alone when I say that he
is one of the best persons I have ever met. He is a dedicated individual
with a big heart. This can be seen by his relationship with his pledge
class. As President, I met every one of the pledges before offering them
bids. It is a group Michael is close to. He brings feeling and character to
the pledges, and probably is their strongest leader.


Second of all, our house is one of the most respected fraternities at the
University. Here are some of our accomplishments:


[1] Our house GPA is above the university and Greek average.

[2] Our members are involved with the university [organizations and officers
listed].

[3] Our house demographics include students of all races and backgrounds.
We have members of white, Asian and African-American descents.

[4] We are committed to making a contribution to our community. Last year we
raised thousands of dollars for an [identified charity].


I also want to address an issue of obvious importance to you: alcohol.
"Obviously, we, like any other fraternity have parties and they are quite
large. We do purchase kegs with house funds and most of us drink. However,
many guys in the house do not drink in the quantities that fraternity guys
are stereotyped to do. I also have a policy with the pledges that no alcohol
is ever to be forced upon them at any point in time. This includes both
liquor and beer."


We have a responsible and constructive pledge process, designed to teach
pledges the history and traditions our house. We also try to mold them into
a cohesive unit. We've never seen alcohol as an essential way to achieve
this goal and I have completely banned its use and even presence with the
pledges. I know I am legally responsible for anything that could go wrong
with pledging I would never support forced drinking. Be assured your son is
in good hands, even though you have never met me.


The operating expenses of the physical house is about $100,000 per year,
which is covered by rent and parlor fees. These expenses include things such
as a remodeling loan we are paying off. The parlor fees come from the pool
of money collected by the dues, which comes out to be about $35,000 for the
year. The house budget, with the pool of dues comes to the following, 9,000
per semester for rush, 9,000 for parties, 1,000 for philanthropy, 2,000 for
house upkeep.


Mr. Smith, please excuse this long e-mail. I wanted you to know we are good
people with good futures. We work hard at our school work, but we also have
fun on the weekends. Alcohol is involved with our house on the weekends, but
is strictly optional. We also have mandatory study hall for our pledges
because we know the pledging process does take some time. We want to make
sure they put their school work first.


All of us feel strongly about keeping Michael as a member of this house. I
know he loves the house and the members, especially his pledge class. If
you or Mrs. Smith ever have questions do not hesitate to contact me.


Jeff Jones


FROM A CONCERNED PARENT


Mr. Jones: thanks for your helpful e mail. I respect your aims and good
intentions.


Admittedly, my impression of fraternities isn't a good one. From what I can
see in the local paper, police reports about what fraternity members
actually do are inconsistent with the lofty principles they proclaim. The
main problem appears to be alcohol abuse. I believe many fraternities
(unintentionally perhaps) condition young people to heavy drinking, with
serious lifelong consequences. I mean no offense, but from what I can gather
informally your house does not deviate from this pattern. I've visited the
campus and asked candid questions. Would it surprise you if the word
"partying" is most often mentioned when I ask others to describe the
defining characteristic of your house?


Why should a parent become involved in such matters? Aren't college students
adults, capable of managing their own affairs? I don't think there's a
simple answer to that question. Throughout history "elders" have had a role
in guiding the young. And that guidance didn't stop at an arbitrary age. The
first year of college as an immediate transition to full autonomy is an
American cultural characteristic, not a law of nature. College
administrators promote cultural diversity on so many issues, but on this one
(i.e. the role of parents during the first year or so of college), only the
traditional American collegiate model is favored. I respectfully disagree.
Circumstances differ, people differ, and families differ. Our relationship
with our son will not dictated by someone else's theory. We know him best.


Recently, I read about a lawsuit initiated by a parent whose son died in a
hazing incident. The house involved had a solid reputation. The national
fraternity website (like yours) contained only
glowing reports about worthy goals and accomplishments. But, apparently, a
hidden culture had evolved supporting practices that could not be admitted
in public. So, to other potential harms of fraternity life I must add
another: acquiring the habit of deception.


As best I can tell, the parent whose son died in the hazing incident
accepted the "full autonomy at age 18" American model. That's all he knew.
Now he knows--as I think he knew in his heart when his son left home--that
young men in particular are highly susceptible to practiced techniques
designed to play on the instinct for peer bonding. I've seen the
consequences before. Michael hasn't. It would be best to help him reason his
way out of this situation, but he's caught in the middle of it. It's as if
one were to try to introduce a skier to the technique of stopping while
she's racing down hill. Abstract words of wisdom won't help at that point;
he needs a safety net.



Here's one thing I know about Michael. He has a loving heart. He wants to
help and contribute to his pledge class. I believe this instinct (to be
helpful to other pledges) can be his undoing if the young people managing
the pledging process resort to any kind of hazing. Given his size, strength,
and temperament, Michael would take the brunt of it. Would I trust young men
aged 18-21 who I do not know--some, perhaps, under the influence of alcohol
at the time--to manage a hazing regime with care and discretion? In a word,
no. A total, flat, absolute and resolute *no.*


So, I have two questions for you. Your answer is not confidential. State U.
officials or law enforcement officers might see it.


[1] In the past four years, has your chapter been accused of or found
responsible for any act of hazing, as State U. defines hazing?


[2] As State U. defines hazing, is your fraternity engaging in any form of
hazing directed toward the current pledge class or any of its members?


I feel strongly about the stated commitment of your fraternity to integrity
and personal honor. Whether your reply to me (if any) would be guided by
those principles, I do not know. But I ask you to abide by them and to tell
me the truth.


I have asked Michael to stop all pledging activities until you are able to
respond.


Respectfully,


Beckett Smith




THE FRATERNITY PRESIDENT REPLIES



Thanks for your willingness to hear my perspective. I spoke with Michael
earlier this evening and it is apparent to me that nothing more can be done.
I want to write you back because I want you to know that I am not avoiding
the questions you posed to me.


ZZP fraternity has a flag and a shield with three colors: red, white, and
orange. They stand for loyalty, integrity and secrecy. "As President and a
brother I have vowed to hold secret the things that take place in our
brotherhood . . . good and bad. Secrecy is something that each of us holds
very dear and we are all very disappointed if something gets out that should
have remained within the brotherhood. I would clearly tell you anything that
is public information, but as for things that take place amongst members of
our house, I will not break the oath which I so willingly gave."



I don't think there's anything I can say to change your mind about
fraternities. But I will state again that our house is not what the
stereotype suggests. I believe we've created a community that gives our
members lifelong friendships and memories. Under no circumstances are
pledges forced to drink alcohol. My parents pay many thousands of dollars
for me to go to school here. I don't waste their money. I'm a good student.
This summer I have a prestigious internship in a Los Angeles law firm. Many
other members have similar backgrounds. We would not jeopardize our futures
by allowing members of our fraternity to force pledges to drink, nor would
we ever allow an intoxicated member of the house to control what the pledges
do.


Whenever the pledges are around the house together our pledge instructor,
myself and our vice president are required to be there the entire time. "We
are also, always, stone cold sober and in full control of the meetings. We
fully realize the potential danger a drunk brother could pose to a pledge
class and we will not allow that to happen."


I think Michael made a wise decision by selecting our house. "We stress the
importance of academics, philanthropy, respect towards women and
brotherhood." We'll miss your son
greatly because we all wanted to have him as our brother. He will, however,
remain a friend to us all for the years to come.


Greek systems are in trouble across the country because of the failures of a
few houses. We don't fit that mold. "Many people, from the outside,
consider a fraternity to be nothing more than a drinking club, but to us, it
is much more. It is brotherhood, friendships and memories."


Respectfully,


Jeff Jones



THE FATHER'S CONCLUDING MESSAGE



Jeffrey (if I may). Thank you. I know I've questioned some things you
cherish. For you to respond with such courtesy is a great reflection on you
and the University.


I wasn't asking about secret rituals. I was asking for a clear statement
that you are adhering to current University hazing policies. You can't or
won't answer that narrowly framed question. Don't you think your reluctance
in this regard should cause concern to a parent?


Jeffrey, most parents *assume* you're following University hazing policies.
They're trusting you (and the University) in this regard. Most wouldn't even
think to question you further. So, if you're not following those policies,
you are (without any evil intent) deceiving people. Do you understand?


If you're hazing (as the University defines hazing) you must disagree with
the hazing policy. Accordingly, I'd urge you to *challenge* that policy.
Take a stand. Be open and honest. That I could respect, even if I didn't
fully agree with your position. But not being fully honest with people who
are trusting you with their sons--that I can't endorse. You can be proud of
many things, but not that.


Let me pose another series of questions for you to think about (not to
answer). I don't ask them by accident, as I think you understand.


[] I know you have occasional study halls for pledges. Perhaps a few hours a
week Do those study halls compensate for the amount of time you expect
pledges to devote to the pledging process? How many hours are you asking
them to clean and work in the house, or engage in related activities? How
many hours are expected "informally" even if not specifically required? Are
the pledges able to complete a normal course load and get a reasonable
amount of sleep? Do you appreciate (remember) how critical the first year is
to a new student, especially the pre examination period of the spring
semester? Is your emphasis on helping your pledges through that difficult
period-or in attending parties, and cleaning up afterward?


Here's my point. Loving a brother means *caring about their futures.* I know
you agree with that (I'm not being sarcastic). But do you think perhaps that
long term focus on true brotherhood is being lost due to the current social
emphasis, especially the emphasis on drinking? Look at your house budget.
What does it tell you about your highest priorities?


Jeffrey, I love the emphasis on brotherhood and friendship. It's truly a
noble ideal. I honestly wanted to be convinced your fraternity is different,
and adheres to it. But I think you're trapped in a culture that undermines
your best intentions. And I think you're intelligent enough understand, if
you try.


Well, enough. I don't want to consume all *your* time. What's in the back of
my mind is the sense that I can't worry just about my son. I worry about the
other sons too. If I can convince you, just a little, that maybe some
current practices merit re examination (in light of your own ideals), that
will make me feel better. We agree you have a big responsibility-- lives and
futures are in your hands, more than you may realize.


I respect you personally and wish you well. I especially liked your
statement: " [Michael] will, however, remain a friend to us all for the
years to come." If you do that it will be one of the good things you can
rightly mark on the ledger to your credit.


My best to you!


Beckett Smith
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Old 04-16-2003, 05:12 PM
KSigkid KSigkid is offline
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Interesting...although I don't think the fraternity president could have said anything to change the mother's mind.

Collin
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Old 04-16-2003, 05:26 PM
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This has nothing to do with the thread, but I almost fell off my chair when I read "BECKETT SMITH"...hardeeeharhar!
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Old 04-16-2003, 05:29 PM
Kevin Kevin is offline
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It depends on what type of chapter programming (hazing or not) the chapter participated in. I'm not sure if the Chapter President avoided that question on purpose or because he just missed that question.

I think the chapter president did well to try to persuade the parent, I'm just unsure whether he was open enough or if the parent was even capable of being satiated.
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Old 04-16-2003, 05:35 PM
carnation carnation is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by OohTeenyWahine
This has nothing to do with the thread, but I almost fell off my chair when I read "BECKETT SMITH"...hardeeeharhar!

OMG, I just caught that.
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Old 04-16-2003, 05:50 PM
DGMarie DGMarie is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by ktsnake
I think the chapter president did well to try to persuade the parent, I'm just unsure whether he was open enough or if the parent was even capable of being satiated.
Frankly, it was pretty apparent to me that he avoided answering her questions by playing the "it's a secret card." I also loved the reference to "house traditions" which may well be entirely negative. In all, I think as a mother myself I did not find any fault in his mother's questions or comments.
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Old 04-16-2003, 06:31 PM
FuzzieAlum FuzzieAlum is offline
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Quote:
Interesting...although I don't think the fraternity president could have said anything to change the mother's mind.
It was a father, not a mother, unless that changed that for privacy purposes.

I agree the president probably couldn't have changed his mind - but he could have done more and answered his direct, specific questions about hazing!
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Old 04-16-2003, 07:09 PM
DeltAlum DeltAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DGMarie
Frankly, it was pretty apparent to me that he avoided answering her questions by playing the "it's a secret card." I also loved the reference to "house traditions" which may well be entirely negative. In all, I think as a mother myself I did not find any fault in his mother's questions or comments.
I agree.

The answer, while well written, didin't address the question at all really.

As the father of a college age son and two post college daughters I can really relate to this man's concerns. Whether the president could have changed his mind or not is a good question, but he had good questions as well -- which weren't addressed correctly.
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Old 04-16-2003, 09:25 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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I am just squirming with embarrassment at what "Mike" must have gone through.

If you don't believe your son is adult enough to handle being away from home, drive him to the local community college each morning, oh, and sit outside the classroom with the leash around his neck in your hand.

I wonder how much of what the son told his parents was truth, and how much was venting. I recall my mother asking me at some point in adolescence if I liked anyone, and I said I did, I just needed to vent when I got home.

The prez said he would tell anything that is public info. If there have been internal incidents, handled in the fraternity that didn't get out to the campus at large, he CAN'T tell anyone....simple as that. If the dad wanted to find out if they've been found guilty of anything that is public info, he should really have investigated that (if it was such a concern) before giving his son permission to pledge.
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Old 04-16-2003, 09:37 PM
DeltAlum DeltAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by 33girl
The prez said he would tell anything that is public info. If there have been internal incidents, handled in the fraternity that didn't get out to the campus at large, he CAN'T tell anyone....simple as that. If the dad wanted to find out if they've been found guilty of anything that is public info, he should really have investigated that (if it was such a concern) before giving his son permission to pledge.
I pledged without telling my parents. They didn't know until I was home for a visit and they asked me what my pledge badge was.

I think the president did hide behind the "S" word (secrets). He was asked a question that had nothing to do with rituals. He didn't give an answer, although he danced around it really eloquently.

"Mike" may be at a state of mental and emotional development where he can be expected to make "good" decisions. Or he may not. His father is probably a better judge of that than we are.
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:29 PM
hoosier hoosier is offline
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Spoiled brat

Little Johnny is a spoiled brat, and daddy can not let go.

If Johnny was an athlete, the father would have driven the coaches mad. We call this the tennis father (see the Williams' girls dad) or soccer mom.

I'm sure that if Johnny would happen to get a degree, his father would send similar letters to his prospective employers.

I think the chapter pres should have answered the hazing question, but even if the answer was "we don't violate the university's hazing policy" the daddy would have responded "I don't believe you."
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Old 04-17-2003, 01:52 PM
aurora_borealis aurora_borealis is offline
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Maybe I am just paranoid...

The first thing I thought of was that there was an admittance of buying and having alcohol, which I don't have an issue with; but that people under 21 had access to it and that could really leave the door open for risk management and liability. It isn't stated where they live, but I believe almost all states have laws and serious penalties for providing alcohol to minors, as do many universities. The national org likely has policies concerning alcohol as well.

After reading this I am going to surmise that Mike is anywhere from 17-19 as a freshman. Of course people under 21 will drink, and can do it responsibly, but WOW for just putting it out there like that in an email that could be forwarded to school administrators, and so on. "Jeff Jones" admitted he was legally responsible, which I think could really come back to bite him on the ass if anything happened later. Seems to be a contradiction when he says there is no alcohol for the pledges, but there is no forced drinking. Maybe it was misconstrued in the translation.
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Old 04-17-2003, 05:31 PM
madmax madmax is offline
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I think the fraternity should have given the kid his walking papers. He and his father are going to be more trouble than they are worth.
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Old 04-17-2003, 06:42 PM
Blue Violet Blue Violet is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by OohTeenyWahine
This has nothing to do with the thread, but I almost fell off my chair when I read "BECKETT SMITH"...hardeeeharhar!
Why is that funny?

Back on track, I think the dad has legitimate concerns. I think the fraternity president should have been more forthcomming with his answers. Big avoidance tactics there.IMO.
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Old 04-17-2003, 07:08 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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In our chapter, we send out letters to the new members' parents specifically asking them to write back if they have any concerns about the pledging process. I think chapters need to be prepared for parents like these, because they're the norm these days -- not the exception. I think it's natural for a parent to be that concerned -- especially if this kid is their oldest child. Or their youngest child. Or their only child. They've just let their kid go away from home for the first time, they're just starting to trust the kid to make their own decisions, and in many instances, they are the ones paying for the fraternity or sorority costs. I wouldn't want to be pouring in 800 dollars a semester to see my kid being hazed, either. I don't see why y'all are complaining about how it's best that this kid didn't pledge, because he would have been "too much trouble" -- what? It's too much trouble that a parent has legitimate questions that he wants answered, and when the fraternity president avoids these questions, the parent is still concerned?

Speaking from the position of somebody who has anti-Greek parents -- a lot of parents feel the same way that "Mike's" parents do. I didn't even tell my parents that I'd rushed until after I accepted my bid, because I knew they wouldn't like it. I think my mother still thinks I got hazed, even though I've assured her that I didn't. My mother's seen a couple episodes of "Sorority Life" and assumes that was what I was going through, even though I've tried to explain the difference between SL and actual sorority life to her. And the only reason I'm even allowed to be in a sorority at all is that since I'm paying for it, and my parents figure if it's my time, my money, I'm over 18, and my grades don't fall, they don't really have a say. And since they haven't gotten a call from the hospital yet, they figure I'm doing okay.

That said, if I was Mike, in this case, I'd be humiliated.

And let's just be honest -- freshmen very often DON'T make very good decisions for themselves. That's why we see so many hazing stories -- because a lot of freshmen leaving home for the first time are desperate to fit in, they will do things that they might not otherwise consider.

To finish up, 'cause I know this is already way too long, I thought the president's replies were satisfactory -- until he played the "one of the fundamental differences between fraternities and clubs is that we have secrets, therefore I can't tell you what our pledgeship consists of" card. THAT is why non-Greeks think our initiation rituals consist of sacrificing lambs and drinking their blood. That's why non-Greeks get initiation and pledging confused. Ritual is secret, but pledging should not be. And "our pledge period activities are secret" is really just code "we're doing things we could get in trouble for doing if everyone knew about them." If you're not doing anything you shouldn't be doing, and it's not ritual, why can't you tell non-members about it?
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