Palestine-Israel Conflict

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
2. Resources. This is perhaps the oldest reason for war. Since the beginning of time, we have fought each other for land, and natural resources. Often time, governments use ideology to legitimize the war for resources. One can look at Palestine as a good example. Both side use ideology for the battle over land.

There is no country called Palestine. "Palestine" has never existed.

Israel was attacked on the day it was born. She fended off war after war after war. The Six-Day war which Israel started was also considered one of defense and that has never been challenged. When Egypt blocked its waterways and surrounded the country with a pan-Arab force, Israel had no choice but to attack to live and survive. The Arab military structure was run by incompetent people and even though Israel was outgunned and outmanned, the Arab military failed miserably. Generals were relatives of the leadership and sent forces out and did not know what they were doing.

Israel could have easily destroyed all Arab military presence in the region and set its own rules on the table for peace if it had not been for American interference and fear of full-on Soviet support for Syria and Egypt. It was around this point in time when France realigned itself with Arab countries because of economic interests and actually let Israel know this. Around the same time the U.S. lifted its arms embargo on Israel. No international force was sent in as peacekeepers because Arab and Soviet blocs in the UN prevented it even though Israel asked for it prior to the war. The U.S. did not sail through the strait to let Egypt know it had no right to be there. The world forgot about Israel and doomed it to death and in a few short days Israel became the dominant military force in the region and no longer held an "under-dog" position.

After the war, Israel returned large pieces of land to Egypt that could have more than doubled its size and given it a much-needed boost militarily and economically. The land kept were tiny pieces from Jordan and Egypt (the West Bank and Gaza). For the first time, Jews were allowed into their holy areas. Not only did "Palestine" never exist, but Israel never waged a war until it was attacked. The only true "just" war is one where you are "attacked".

-Rudey
--History lesson 101.

[moe.ron]

Actually, most of the post-wwII countries are artificials. That is why many of the problems in Africa are still not resolved.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Actually, most of the post-wwII countries are artificials. That is why many of the problems in Africa are still not resolved.

But they actually existed. There simply is no Palestine. The country of Palestine did not exist ever - not a year, not a month, not a day, not ever for a tenth of a second.

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
But they actually existed. There simply is no Palestine. The country of Palestine did not exist ever - not a year, not a month, not a day, not ever for a tenth of a second.

-Rudey

Your right, for now. I except there will be a Palestinian state. When, who knows. Time will tell. However, there is a Palestinian nation. Here, I will define a nation as "A self-identifying people who share a common history, often language, a common culture and a homeland." For a state to be established, you need the following:

1. A homeland
2. self-governance
3. set borders
4. being recognized by other states.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Your right, for now. I except there will be a Palestinian state. When, who knows. Time will tell. However, there is a Palestinian nation. Here, I will define a nation as "A self-identifying people who share a common history, often language, a common culture and a homeland." For a state to be established, you need the following:

1. A homeland
2. self-governance
3. set borders
4. being recognized by other states.

Oh I see...so Jordanians and Egyptians are a nation with self-identifying people with a common history, culture and homeland?

There is none of that. Gazans generally tend to dislike those from the West Bank. The language in the region is Arabic which is spoken by all Arab countries - however there are different dialects even within the supposed "territories". Loyalty to one's village runs very high to this day actually. There is no common homeland. I don't understand where you're getting this stuff.

I don't care how you try to skirt around the issue - Palestine has never existed. If you really want insist on your definition, Jordan would be the closest thing to come to "Palestine".

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

No, that is the technical definition of a nation and a state.

How would you define a nation and a state?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
No, that is the technical definition of a nation and a state.

How would you define a nation and a state?

I didn't argue with your definition of a nation or a state and honestly that really doesn't matter much to me right this second. Probably in a day or two it might. I'm just saying:

1) There is no Palestine and has never been a "Palestine".

2) The region you are attempting to call Palestine does not fit that definition of a nation.

3) You should call the area by its proper name "Israel". Doing otherwise in light of the fact that Palestine never existed at any point and does not fit the definition of a nation might sound offensive to others.

-Rudey

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by moe.ron
No, that is the technical definition of a nation and a state.

How would you define a nation and a state?

A state is a legal entity. A nation is a cultural ebtity. They are not one and the same, otherwise the phrase "nation state" would not have been used in academia for so long.

Palestine existed as a state from 1948 until 1967, when Israel was invaded... again. Under international law, Israel is under no obligation to return the land seized in its defense. The ensuing control poor treatment of what are now called the Palestinian people, combined with the poor treatment of Palestinian refugees in Arab nations, especially Jordan, created a solidarity that has culturally manifested itself into what most would consider a nation.

It reasonable to assert that Palestine has never existed as a state and as a nation at the same time. But Palestine does exist.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
A state is a legal entity. A nation is a cultural ebtity. They are not one and the same, otherwise the phrase "nation state" would not have been used in academia for so long.

Palestine existed as a state from 1948 until 1967, when Israel was invaded... again. Under international law, Israel is under no obligation to return the land seized in its defense. The ensuing control poor treatment of what are now called the Palestinian people, combined with the poor treatment of Palestinian refugees in Arab nations, especially Jordan, created a solidarity that has culturally manifested itself into what most would consider a nation.

It reasonable to assert that Palestine has never existed as a state and as a nation at the same time. But Palestine does exist.

No, once again, Palestine did not even exist as a state. Palestine never existed. Not as anything more than a word thrown around.

-Rudey

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Rudey
No, once again, Palestine did not even exist as a state. Palestine never existed. Not as anything more than a word thrown around.

-Rudey

As a state, you are correct. As a nation, it existed.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Rudey
No, once again, Palestine did not even exist as a state. Palestine never existed. Not as anything more than a word thrown around.

-Rudey

Do you want to explain the difference between the 1966 and 1968 borders for Israel then?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
As a state, you are correct. As a nation, it existed.

I am correct on nation and state and you obviously chose not to read a single thing I posted. Palestine never existed. Never. Read the quote I took below. If you actually have a reason why it existed or any fact, please let us know Arya. If you don't, then don't tell me you're right and I'm wrong - this is not a matter of opinion but pure indisputable FACT.

Russel the difference between 1966 is that the land was in the posession of Jordan and Egypt and in 1968 the land was in the posession of Israel. Again, NEVER in the posession of "Palestinians" or called "Palestine". Palestine never existed.

To quote a UChicago scholar:
In fact, in 1922 Great Britain unilaterally severed what is now Jordan from the original Mandate Palestine that was to become the “Jewish national home.” In 1947 the UN further partitioned the land west of the Jordan River into a Jewish and an Arab state (before the term Palestinian was applied to the Arabs who lived there). The Arabs, joined by neighboring Arab states, waged war against the new State of Israel and lost all the land within the so-called Green Line. The so-called West Bank and Gaza were controlled by Jordan and Egypt respectively, but they never created an independent Arab state in those areas. The Jordanian annexation of the West Bank was never recognized by the nations of the world, except for Great Britain and Pakistan. It never belonged to the local Arabs.

In 1967 Israel defeated its Arab neighbors, who again tried to destroy Israel, and occupied the West Bank and Gaza (the biblical Judea, Samaria, and Gaza). According to international law, the land reverted to its mandate status. Again, it never belonged to the local Arabs, now called Palestinians.

Unfortunately, many otherwise educated and intelligent people have little patience for, or knowledge of, history.

Milton H.Polin, AM’53

[moe.ron]

You are correct, in the second century AD, after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.. The Palestinian now were nomands that roam in Jordan and other areas. However, Palestine as as nation now exist. So, how do you propose to solve the problem that in engulfing the area?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
You are correct, in the second century AD, after crushing the last Jewish revolt, the Romans first applied the name Palaestina to Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.. The Palestinian now were nomands that roam in Jordan and other areas. However, Palestine as as nation now exist. So, how do you propose to solve the problem that in engulfing the area?

This again is a rumor and a myth. The Philistines of that period are not even close to what are called the "Palestinians". I guess you can say that is where the name can come from but that is as far as it goes.

And how I propose to solve the problem is a whole other issue. The first step no matter what the solution is a total stop to all violence and the only way to achieve this is through the security fence. A fence is what has prevented all suicide murderers from coming out of Gaza even though that region has a much more visible presence of terrorist leaders. A fence is not a political border as some are trying to make it out to be and if Israel has to build it through private donations then fine, I don't care. What comes next are trust building measures which include Israel dismantling certain settlements and easing military restrictions in other areas. The areas that military restrictions are eased in are the areas that a "Palestinian" security force actively patrols. There can no longer be excuses of "civil war" if you make those arrests. It must be done. Criminals and murderers need to be arrested and the area needs to have all weapons removed from it. At that point and only at that point will both sides be able to negotiate without physical intimidation.

Until then idiot members of the EU need to stop anti-semitism in their countries, need to stop interfering in the internal politics of Israel by trying to support politicians who have absolutely no support at home, and need to stop funding Arafat (born in Cairo by the way) who is worth several billion dollars now and sends a couple hundred thousand dollars a month to his wife in Europe so she can live well while people are supposedly "starving". I don't know but a couple billion could sure buy a lot of food.

-Rudey

[swissmiss04]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
Palestine existed as a state from 1948 until 1967, when Israel was invaded... again. Under international law, Israel is under no obligation to return the land seized in its defense. The ensuing control poor treatment of what are now called the Palestinian people, combined with the poor treatment of Palestinian refugees in Arab nations, especially Jordan, created a solidarity that has culturally manifested itself into what most would consider a nation.

It reasonable to assert that Palestine has never existed as a state and as a nation at the same time. But Palestine does exist.

Actually...see UN Resolution 242...passed Nov. of 1967. It mandated the return of Palestinian lands acquired from the 1967 war (basically this would have restored the borders to the 1948 standard). So they indeed are obligated to return land seized in conflict, regardless if it was on the defense or not.
And Palestine DID exist as a British controlled colony as mandated by the Balfour Declaration of 1922. This partitioned off some of the Arab states that were previously under Ottoman control, not including Egypt, which had been under British "rule" (I put that in quotes because they had a king, but he was basically a puppet of the British gov't and interests). Lebanon and Syria (or what is now known as Lebanon and Syria) were given to the French and Jordan (then called Trans-Jordan) and Palestine were given to the UK.
When the Zionist mov't started back in the 1880s, the hopeful migrants were told that there was no one living in the area that was then called Palestine. In actuality there were around 800,000 Arabs (of varying religious groups) living there. However they were more than happy to sell their land to the incoming Jews from all over the world. For a while things were fairly calm. Conflicts of a small nature began to erupt in the post WWI years because Arabs realized that they had sold quite a bit of their land and were being pressured to sell more. However, they had already dug themselves a bit of a hole. Once the UN created the state of Israel, they then realized their predicament. They were disenfranchised of even more of their land, but in MY opinion they (the Palestinians) sort of brought it upon themselves. However, since the UN mandated it, the states of Israel *and* Palestine both deserve to exist, albeit within the 1948 borders. The wall is a pretty bad idea diplomatically speaking. It will cause more suffering among Palestinians, greater division between the Israelis and Palestinians, and it creates a nasty PR problem for Israel and its government.
Honestly, it's a huge mess and I'm so glad I'm not there. I am going to Egypt in a couple weeks and I am very interested in learning even more. I'll be on the Sinai Peninsula for a few days. It should be interesting.