If You Didn't Vote For Dubya, Would You Vote For McCain?

[PhiPsiRuss]

I was wondering about this because its been a long time since I voted for a Republican in the presidential general elections. I would definitely vote for McCain. Anyone else who never voted for our current President feel this way?

[ZTAngel]

I consider myself a very staunch liberal but McCain is one of the few conservatives I could live with. It would depend on the Democratic candidate and what he/she has to offer. McCain is still very conservative but I certainly wouldn't classify him as a neo-con so I think he'd be more my speed than the current administration.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZTAngel
I consider myself a very staunch liberal but McCain is one of the few conservatives I could live with. It would depend on the Democratic candidate and what he/she has to offer. McCain is still very conservative but I certainly wouldn't classify him as a neo-con so I think he'd be more my speed than the current administration.

Please don't think I'm directing this only at you.

People don't understand McCain or Lieberman. McCain is very far from liberal. Very. If anyone wants to see to what extent, I even provided graphic representations in a previous thread.

And George Bush is not a neo-conservative. McCain is also not a neo-conservative. They both have neo-conservative backers though and if you think the Bush administration follows neo-conservative ideals then you better understand that McCain would as well. The neocons who supported John McCain in 2000 were Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol and the neocons who supported George W. Bush in 2000 were Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle. According to Daniel Drezner, "Both groups had the same overarching policy goals, but there was one important difference -- the McCain supporters understood that democracy promotion in the Middle East and elsewhere was not something that could be done on the cheap. In the case of Iraq, for example, the McCain neocons believed that statebuilding in Iraq would require a heavy force, while the Bush supporters bought into Rumsfeld's idea that shock, awe, and a light force could do the trick."

In general though, a neo-conservative is considered the liberal branch (as opposed to paleo-conservatives). Actually some people consider neo-conservatives to be a leftist group. Others consider the term "Neo-con" to be another dirty word for "Jew".

The part that upsets me is that people that vote, vote on an image in their mindset and not on what the candidate really does. But then again, I want Doritos in shiny bags, organic food that costs twice as much as regular food but tastes the same, and to marry a wife with dark hair for no reason.

-Rudey

[DeltAlum]

It would depend on the opponent, but I could vote for McCain.

[WLFEO]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
I was wondering about this because its been a long time since I voted for a Republican in the presidential general elections. I would definitely vote for McCain. Anyone else who never voted for our current President feel this way?

YES!!!!

[ZTAngel]

Originally posted by Rudey
Please don't think I'm directing this only at you.

People don't understand McCain or Lieberman. McCain is very far from liberal. Very. If anyone wants to see to what extent, I even provided graphic representations in a previous thread.

And George Bush is not a neo-conservative. McCain is also not a neo-conservative. They both have neo-conservative backers though and if you think the Bush administration follows neo-conservative ideals then you better understand that McCain would as well. The neocons who supported John McCain in 2000 were Robert Kagan and Bill Kristol and the neocons who supported George W. Bush in 2000 were Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, and Richard Perle. According to Daniel Drezner, "Both groups had the same overarching policy goals, but there was one important difference -- the McCain supporters understood that democracy promotion in the Middle East and elsewhere was not something that could be done on the cheap. In the case of Iraq, for example, the McCain neocons believed that statebuilding in Iraq would require a heavy force, while the Bush supporters bought into Rumsfeld's idea that shock, awe, and a light force could do the trick."

In general though, a neo-conservative is considered the liberal branch (as opposed to paleo-conservatives). Actually some people consider neo-conservatives to be a leftist group. Others consider the term "Neo-con" to be another dirty word for "Jew".

The part that upsets me is that people that vote, vote on an image in their mindset and not on what the candidate really does. But then again, I want Doritos in shiny bags, organic food that costs twice as much as regular food but tastes the same, and to marry a wife with dark hair for no reason.

-Rudey

Oh, I definitely agree that McCain is far from being liberal. He is very conservative and his record in Congress demonstrates this. But, if I had to choose between Bush and McCain, I'd choose McCain hands down. In 2008, if McCain were to get the Republican Presidential bid, I would most likely vote Democratic (since I find Democrats are more in line with my values) unless the Democratic candidate was truly, truly, truly horrible.

I get you with the Lieberman thing. I think he's been unfairly criticized by many people for being non-partisan in his voting. I think it's a problem of both parties - we encourage our senators (and citizens) to be free-thinkers but then create a backlash against the senators who don't vote with the rest of their party. If you look at his voting record in Congress, Lieberman is very liberal. He may not stand up for the Democratic party as much as I would like but he votes with the members of his party the majority of the time.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ZTAngel
Oh, I definitely agree that McCain is far from being liberal. He is very conservative and his record in Congress demonstrates this. But, if I had to choose between Bush and McCain, I'd choose McCain hands down. In 2008, if McCain were to get the Republican Presidential bid, I would most likely vote Democratic (since I find Democrats are more in line with my values) unless the Democratic candidate was truly, truly, truly horrible.

I get you with the Lieberman thing. I think he's been unfairly criticized by many people for being non-partisan in his voting. I think it's a problem of both parties - we encourage our senators (and citizens) to be free-thinkers but then create a backlash against the senators who don't vote with the rest of their party. If you look at his voting record in Congress, Lieberman is very liberal. He may not stand up for the Democratic party as much as I would like but he votes with the members of his party the majority of the time.

The reason that people have these ideas about McCain and Lieberman is the media. Lieberman is considered conservative and Hilary isn't? Actually the rotweiler liberal congresswomen from California know they can never take on a Clinton so they don't say anything about her. Lieberman and both Clintons are from the center in the Dem party. Lieberman was for the Iraq war just as many other Dems were. He hasn't changed his position and this bothers some like Dean who want to use Iraq as a political tool (politics over what's good for the country, not that there is anything wrong with that). Otherwise, he is a staunch Dem.

My thought is that McCain got an image in the media of not being tough early on. People laugh at George Bush's speeches to the public now but McCain buckled under pressure during their debates when George pulled a campaign pamphlet on him. His "hero" image took another hit when the genius that is Karl Rove attacked his military background. He bounced back but not all the way so people think he's somewhere in the middle when he's not. That's what I think anyway.

-Rudey

[hoosier]

Who's for McCain?

Conservatives? No

Liberals? Not likely to abandon Hillary for McCain

Moderates? Hardly exist

Press? Yes, and that is his only constituency. It would be interesting to see how the press splits if McCain gets the GOP nomination (he won't) and Hillary (she will) is the Dem.

Hillary has never faced the press directly - never during her NY Senate campaign. As a presidential candidate, she would have to answer questions, or the press (often known as the Media Wing of the Democratic Party) might jump ship (not hardly).

[AGDee]

I don't get why people think that liberals all love Hilary and would vote for her for President. I, for one, would not, even though I liked what she tried to do with health care and agree with her on a lot of issues, I don't think she'd make a good President and I'm not sure I trust her.

McCain gives you more of a feeling that he listens to people, cares about people and maybe even understands what the "little people" in the middle and lower class go through in this country. He doesn't give me the impression that he has blinders on. I liked his ideas about campaign reform and found him to be more flexible than GW. I would have voted for him in the past and would consider voting for him again. In his last campaign, he definitely came off as less conservative than GW.

Perhaps this is media hype, but when I read things like this:

For one thing, McCain's heresies extend far beyond "ethics" issues like campaign finance reform, his investigation of the Abramoff scandal, or even his opposition to Dick Cheney's pro-torture policies. He's also defied the GOP on tax cuts and global climate change--both huge issues to conservatives--and has thumbed his nose conspicuously at the leadership of the Christian Right.

from the link , I start to like the guy...

[Rudey]

Originally posted by AGDee
I don't get why people think that liberals all love Hilary and would vote for her for President. I, for one, would not, even though I liked what she tried to do with health care and agree with her on a lot of issues, I don't think she'd make a good President and I'm not sure I trust her.

McCain gives you more of a feeling that he listens to people, cares about people and maybe even understands what the "little people" in the middle and lower class go through in this country. He doesn't give me the impression that he has blinders on. I liked his ideas about campaign reform and found him to be more flexible than GW. I would have voted for him in the past and would consider voting for him again. In his last campaign, he definitely came off as less conservative than GW.

Perhaps this is media hype, but when I read things like this:

For one thing, McCain's heresies extend far beyond "ethics" issues like campaign finance reform, his investigation of the Abramoff scandal, or even his opposition to Dick Cheney's pro-torture policies. He's also defied the GOP on tax cuts and global climate change--both huge issues to conservatives--and has thumbed his nose conspicuously at the leadership of the Christian Right.

from the link , I start to like the guy...

A google search brings up quite a bit more, including this from Johns Hopkins:
"In many ways, in fact, he is more conservative than the current president. While Bush believes in granting more power to the federal government, McCain believes in taking some away. While Bush has let spending increase to record levels, McCain has reprimanded excessive spending whenever possible. While Bush supported expanding Medicare, subsidizing hybrid cars and instituting steels tariffs, McCain opposed all three. And, despite his depiction in the media, McCain is pro-life, a strong supporter of the Iraq war and a key advocate of reforming Social Security through personal accounts."

And for those that prefer pictures to words: http://www.thetalentshow.org/archives/001850.html

The media has seriously done a bang-up job on this guy's image. I'm seriously amazed by it. I'm amazed by what Karl Rove did to Bush's image too. I wish I was working for him

-Rudey

[hoosier]

McCain' campaign finance reform - passed with his name on it (McCain-Feingold act I think) did just the opposite of what he promised - both the GOP and Dems raised and spent unlimited amounts of money from George Soros and his GOP counterparts.

Similarly, his anti-torture law newly passed (perhaps it sould be called the "Terrorists Bill of Rights") will probably have the opposite effect.

[Exquisite5]

Originally posted by Rudey

And for those that prefer pictures to words: http://www.thetalentshow.org/archives/001850.html

The media has seriously done a bang-up job on this guy's image. I'm seriously amazed by it. I'm amazed by what Karl Rove did to Bush's image too. I wish I was working for him

-Rudey

Thanks for the link. I honestly have no idea who I would vote for now in 2008 if it came down to Hillary and McCain. I don't think Hilary is the right person for the job, but I can't take four more years of someone in the lines of W. I guess I would vote for Hilary only because I would have more faith in her Supreme Court appointees (if any), but I think I'm a bit more center than she is.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Exquisite5
Thanks for the link. I honestly have no idea who I would vote for now in 2008 if it came down to Hillary and McCain. I don't think Hilary is the right person for the job, but I can't take four more years of someone in the lines of W. I guess I would vote for Hilary only because I would have more faith in her Supreme Court appointees (if any), but I think I'm a bit more center than she is.

I'm just saying that there is no such thing as a "White Knight" in politics.

If people have a problem with the Iraq war and then vote for Clinton I would shake my head in disbelief. She is still from the center of the Dems. I don't think the next president would get to vote on a justice. I could be wrong though.

It's a game, and the object of the game is to convince you that they are different and better.

-Rudey

[ms_gwyn]

i'm a registered democrat....but that means nothing to me...

when I lived in AZ I voted for McCain....I wanted McCain to win when he ran for the presidential nomination....

I think I would vote for him if he acutally got the nomination

[AGDee]

We'll just have to see who the candidates are and who seems like they would do the best job when we know a bit more. I do believe that they have been speculating on who would run next time MUCH earlier than ever before. Is that an indication that people are ready for a change? We've got another 3 years ...

ETA: A large number of Democrats voted for Reagan and he was conservative too. Perhaps conservative isn't what scares people... the Christian right is? And we now are defining conservative as the extreme Christian right, not the "less government" stance. I feel like Dubya has imposed more government which infringes on personal rights that should be nobody else's business. Those of us in Michigan also have a different perspective than the rest of the country because our unemployment numbers continue to rise as the auto industry struggles. The announcement of a loss of 3000 GM employees in Michigan was figured to equal 30,000 jobs total .. from suppliers, retail, etc that are all dependent on those auto workers making cars.