Liability Insurance

[JoinerLxa]

I have seen random posts related to Liability Insurance, but
thought a new thread might help. It seems to be a MAJOR
topic at most chapters today.

I thought I might stimulate discussion on:

- WHY liability insurance is so high, and going higher? (lawyers!)
- Do most colleges require frat/soror's to have it? (about 50% do?)
- How do local groups get it, if at all?
- What can be done to lower rates, or at least stop the rise

AND THE BIGGIE:
Could sky-rocketing insurance costs and sometimes "outrageous"
lawsuits, combined with sometimes "outrageous" behaviour
by members, PUT THE NATIONAL GREEK SYSTEM (at least
fraternities) OUT OF BUSINESS?

I know when our chapter alumni "complained" to HQ about
the recent spike in rates, making our chapter by far the
most expensive on campus, the reply, in so many words,
was: "We (HQ) can't do anything about it. Our choice is
to pay whatever the insurance company demands (having
shopped around for the best deal), OR DISBAND OUR
INTERNATIONAL FRATERNITY).

K. Joiner
Lambda Chi Alpha, Georgetown College

[hoosier]

If you don't have insurance, you and every undergraduate member. and their parents, and every advisor, and maybe even every alumnus, is likely to be sued for big money if something happens.

Sure, they could sue you, but you have little or nothing, so they sue the parents of the richest kid in the chapter, or the chapter advisor who owns some property in town, or the richest alumnus.

And they're likely to win.

When you get to court, and the dead pledge's little 11-year-old brother and his 12-yr.-old sister are crying on the wittness stand about how they loved the victim, and his mother tells how he had dreamed for years of being a missionary to Africa, you're going to lose.

Sure, the victim drank a lot of booze at a chapter party, and he fell off the balcony at the dorm six hours after leaving the house, and nobody knows where he was for six hours, you're still going to lose.

And there are some bruises on his fanny - and their lawyer says the
evidence proves these bruises came from paddling - you're guilty of hazing too.

And he pulls out the campus rule book - "No alcohol in chapter houses."

He pulls out your NGLO rules - "No alcohol, no hazing"

And he pulls out police reports for the past five years, and cops have been to your house five times.

What is your defense? "We loved him, he was going to be a brother in three weeks. Everybody in the chapter has been paddled, and we all loved it. It was an accident."

Every GLO has national rules against hazing and boozing. Until the undergrads obey these bans, and we go five years without a hazing or boozing death or injury, your insurance is going up, and you have no choice but to pay up or go out of business.

[Little E]

That was very well said Hoosier. But also remember that in a world post 9-11 insurance rates are up, or that is what our chapter was told. Apparently there were a number of hikes two years ago and we are still feeling them. Frivilous lawsuits aren't helping either.

[Pi Kapp 142]

I was actually just having a discussion today about this subject matter with one of our Leadership Consultants. One of the things that some Fraternities are trying a chapter by chapter risk assessment. I.e. if your chapter does not get into anyhting you pay less in insurance. The only problem that has happened with that is that other chapters start ratting each other out. But in the end I think that is a good thing becuase we start policing ourselves.

[Kevin]

Pi Kapp.. that makes good sense. If I am speeding and I get a ticket for going 45 over the speed limit, does not my insurance premium rise?

Should be the same for chapters. Would be a lot harder to administrate and at what cost to the higher-risk chapters?

Personally, my belief is that national organizations need to clean up their actions, practice real risk reduction and change their cultures in order to catch up to the times.

Many of these lawsuits are not frivilous. The responsible chapters are just being taken to task for something they've condoned for years. Who knows how many folks didn't seek retribution? We need to take the responsibility upon ourselves to protect our own brothers and sisters.

It's not the insurance company's fault that we need insurance, is it?

[SoCalGirl]

Originally posted by JoinerLxa
I have seen random posts related to Liability Insurance, but
thought a new thread might help. It seems to be a MAJOR
topic at most chapters today.

I thought I might stimulate discussion on:

- WHY liability insurance is so high, and going higher? Disregard of National's rules and local laws.
- Do most colleges require frat/soror's to have it? IMHO any college that allows a social organization to operate without insurance is being negligent in their own right.
- How do local groups get it, if at all? No idea. I know there's a couple threads in the local forum about it. Since they're only insuring one chapter (fewer members) the overall liability is less. As well as they have less assests to protect so the coverage required would be less and therefore more affordable as a whole. Though per person average cost may still be prohibitive.
- What can be done to lower rates, or at least stop the rise Following National rules and local laws.

AND THE BIGGIE:
Could sky-rocketing insurance costs and sometimes "outrageous"
lawsuits, combined with sometimes "outrageous" behaviour
by members, PUT THE NATIONAL GREEK SYSTEM (at least
fraternities) OUT OF BUSINESS? HELL YES. Hence the major concern.

I know when our chapter alumni "complained" to HQ about
the recent spike in rates, making our chapter by far the
most expensive on campus, the reply, in so many words,
was: "We (HQ) can't do anything about it. Our choice is
to pay whatever the insurance company demands (having
shopped around for the best deal), OR DISBAND OUR
INTERNATIONAL FRATERNITY). Nationals do have a choice. Disband the chapters that are higher risk and save the ones that follow the rules. This will lower the cost of insurance overall.

K. Joiner
Lambda Chi Alpha, Georgetown College

What many people fail to recognize is that insurance policies are contracts with conditions.The conditions can include such things as a duty to obey all National rules and local laws. If the conditions are not met, the contract is void. That means NO COVERAGE. Which means it's back to being you, your parents, and the advisors ass in a sling!

[DeltAlum]

Thanks SoCalGirl, now I can save a lot of typing stuff I've said many times.

I will simply add one other thing I've also said before. We are already at the point where a lot of fraternities already CAN'T get insurance on their own and have formed a consortium for self insurance. A couple of big settlements against them and some of them won't survive.

[JoinerLxa]

I think I agree with everything everyone has said.

I do think it is unfair that a chapter which does follow the
rules, has never had a liability claim, has never had "the
cops" visit, etc. must pay ever higher premiums.

Even when HQ has a policy of lower premiums for "good"
chapters, overall premium raises raise the cost for all.

I also agree that chapters which break the rules should
loose their charter, even my own. The problem is finding
such chapters before something "bad" happens. Another
problem is all the whining about "its unfair they closed
my chapter!" when that happens.

Of course, if Natl. HQ's actually caught every errant chapter,
and actually closed it, that would probably put the
national fraternity system out of business too.

Just a few more rants and raves...thanks for the comments
everyone!

[hoosier]

"I do think it is unfair that a chapter which does follow the
rules, has never had a liability claim, has never had "the
cops" visit, etc. must pay ever higher premiums."

Probably, in fact, there is a one claim policy. If your chapter has a claim, you're gone.

There may be a few cases, but usually a chapter which has a major injury or death doesn't have a history of minor injuries.

And if you think your chapter and your members and your programs justify a lower insurance rate, try to find an insurance company which will:

1 - believe you
2 - sell to you

[JoinerLxa]

It wouldn't necessarily be the Insurance company that
sets "lower rates for 'good' chapters", but the HQ.

Maybe HQ must pay $xxx per member....but the HQ charges
the chapters and could charge 'good' chapters less and
'bad' chapters more, so that the total for all chapters
"comes out" in the end.

This is how Lambda Chi did it for a while...don't know if
they are still doing it.

But even with that method, if the insurance co. has
a 30% increase in rates that it charges, even the
"good" chapters will have their rates increased.

Oh, and btw, even "little" claims are made, and paid,
no questions asked.

One summer at Vandy a guy was playing basketball in the
LXA lot on the LXA goal.

The house was closed and locked
for the summer (in fact, even the brothers could not enter
the house...it was rented from the univ, and the chapter
did not pay rent in the summer!)

He twisted his ankle pretty bad and was taken to the
emergency room. Eventhough he was "trespassing",
and eventhough no brothers were on campus during
the summer, and eventhough the chapter wasn't renting
that building during the summer, and eventhough he
offered his own insurance card at the ER.....

the ER (Vandy Hospital) sent the bill to LXA's insurance,
which paid for the ER visit, no questions asked.....
HQ then raised the insurance rates on the chapter
starting in the Fall (they were no longer a 'good' chapter).

I doubt a "No Trespassing" sign would have helped.

[madmax]

Originally posted by JoinerLxa
I have seen random posts related to Liability Insurance, but
thought a new thread might help. It seems to be a MAJOR
topic at most chapters today.

I thought I might stimulate discussion on:

- WHY liability insurance is so high, and going higher?

Because the guys running national fraternities are clueless. The majority of the members of any chapter are alumni but the alumni pay nothing and active members are asked to insure everyone. The national/alumni should start paying their share. If 90% of the members are alumni then the national/alumni should pay 90% of the insurance.

Look at all the incidents involving alumni:

1. UPenn(FIGI). Alumnus spends the entire day drinking at lacross game. Then he goes to three different bars. At the end of the day he stops by the chapter and falls down a flight of steps.

2. Indiana (SN). Pledge injury caused by alumnus. http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ma+and+indiana

3. Plattsburg . Alumnus charged in death of pledge.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by madmax
Because the guys running national fraternities are clueless. The majority of the members of any chapter are alumni but the alumni pay nothing and active members are asked to insure everyone. The national/alumni should start paying their share. If 90% of the members are alumni then the national/alumni should pay 90% of the insurance.

Look at all the incidents involving alumni:

1. UPenn(FIGI). Alumnus spends the entire day drinking at lacross game. Then he goes to three different bars. At the end of the day he stops by the chapter and falls down a flight of steps.

2. Indiana (SN). Pledge injury caused by alumnus. http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ma+and+indiana

3. Plattsburg . Alumnus charged in death of pledge.

If those are the only 3, I'm not sold

Seriously though, how are you going to have any success at recruitment if you say you'll have to pay dues for life?

I just got through getting an alum chapter approved and yes, we are paying dues. What for? To support the active chapter. Alum members will be expected to pay a pretty penny 2 years after graduation. This is completely voluntary but we are having great participation!

Will a penny go to insurance? Heck no!

Much better things for alums to put their money to.

The VAST majority of accidents are the fault of undergrads. If not directly, in the incidents you mentioned, because undergrads allowed the alums to do this.

As an alum, I will be the first to tell you, I'm not in charge of the chapter anymore, and I doubt any of the mentioned folks were on the housing corp.

No, undergrads must be responsible ultimately for their own actions. College is a time when we become adults and accept adult responsibilities. This is definitely such a thing.