DYING BREED

[The Original Ape]

Have any of you out there thought about the possibility of the end of BGLOs? It's possible, thanks to hazing laws. I aint hatin' pledging; but apparently the people out there don't know how to do it right. How would you feel if they ALL stopped taking new members?

[dirtymike1906]

Good question! I don't know if a total freeze on pledging is the answer. It may pose a short term solution, especially in answer to destructive lawsuits. In the long term, however, I think BGLOs would greatly suffer, as a lot of enthusiasm and dedication is often renewed by the creation of new members. The idea that pledging is often not done "right" can be directly attributed to the need for orgs to rethink their procedures, methods, and most importantly, the very people to which they extend membership.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by dirtymike1906:
Good question! I don't know if a total freeze on pledging is the answer. It may pose a short term solution, especially in answer to destructive lawsuits. In the long term, however, I think BGLOs would greatly suffer, as a lot of enthusiasm and dedication is often renewed by the creation of new members. The idea that pledging is often not done "right" can be directly attributed to the need for orgs to rethink their procedures, methods, and most importantly, the very people to which they extend membership.

Well stated, my Brutha...

But the fact remains that the reality today is dudes want to pledge; and those bruthas that are already in will continue hazing them whether it's legal or not. With that in mind, is there a way the fraternities can have a rite of passage that EVERYBODY IS WILLING TO COMPLY WITH without someone getting seriously hurt or killed? Would shifting the liability to the prospective be the answer?

[dirtymike1906]

Quite possibly Masterful OA! A shift in liability is proactive, albeit long term success would depend on sustained interest of prospective members. At the same time, in thinking of "EVERYBODY," BGLOs should still consider rethinking procedures, as no prospective would want to accept the liability of possible fatal injury. Members must forge and maintain a new standard and realize that interest will endure given that orgs maintain mystique, leadership, and purpose.

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"Think Alpha Phi Alpha, talk Alpha Phi Alpha, promote Alpha Phi Alpha, and labor for the broad principles of idealism for which Alpha Phi Alpha was created, so that humanity shall look on us as a body worthwhile."
- Henry L. Dickason
6th General President

[The Original Ape]

Good comeback, spec!!!!!!! you sound like an Awful Tall old head!!!

[The Original Ape]

I think the NHPC should attack the legislators with a new definition of hazing based on cultural differences. I also think the members of this organization should be allowed to practice some form of rites of passage based on the above. Removing all pledging was wrong; and only invited chapters to live underground. It created an in-house we/they kinda thing; and when things go wrong, the people that need to know about it are now the last ones to find out. Many times it's too late to fix things then.

I know I'm rambling, but I hope you feel dis.

[dirtymike1906]

The abolishment of pledging was extreme--a grad emergency solution and borderline irrational. You and I both know that culturally, a lot of wonderful tradition was tabled (Can you say Pro show?). Underground pledging is a sad and dangerous reality--a form of cat and mouse Russian Roulette, where at some point, the longer you play, you'll eventually find a fatal bullet in the chamber.

I guess I too am rambling, yet I feel that a compromise is necessary and inevitable. Our leadership is needed.

[AlMighty14]

Maybe if they allowed pledging to brought back out into the open where it could be properly monitored and regulated, a lot of the problems they find themselves faced with will dissappear.. they are plently of things they did during the "good ole days" that promoted not only sisterhood/brotherhood from the outside looking in but vice/versa as well, and it seems to me that it would make the experience ("pledging" not hazing)all that much mo' betta, besides the less one has to hide the less mess they can hopefully get into... what do u think???

[12dn94dst]

Greetings!

A halt on all new members would be interesting to say the least. On the one hand you loose the fun of going to see new members come out & you miss seeing the excitement/joy in their eyes. You also lose out on new ideas/perspectives on issues (a person only has so many new ideas). On the other hand, we'd get an opportunity to develop internally especially regarding how we bring in new members (assuming this is a short term (3-7 year) ban.

This hazing/pledging issue is very interesting. From the opinions of the greeks I've spoken to who were around at the time of the transition, it seems MIP was instituted without the consent of many of the respective memberships. That's very odd to me because we discuss EVERYTHING that has an impact on the organization, especially where new membership is concerned. We vote on when intake occurs, the objective guidelines and the like, but to my knowledge, we have yet to sit down and look at what IS going on, what SHOULD be happening and why there is a discrepancy.

Once we find out why there's a discrepancy, we need to develop steps to change what's wrong and monitor our own progress...basic process management. Manufacturing companies do it all the time, why can't we? Conceptually it's not hard.

(sorry, this is getting long)

Sometimes I think about the "little" things that we consider hazing: walking in line, dressing alike, having to eat together, having to carry certain things with you, etc. and how they relate to daily life. It's amazing to me how many things that are considered hazing for a fraternity/sorority are ok in other circles.

For Example:
There are many parents who dress their children alike.

You must carry pens, pencils, paper, etc. to school with you else you won't be prepared to work.

How many times, when you were younger, has a parent or teacher told you to hold the hands of your siblings/classmates to keep you together or had you line up in a certain order to keep easier track of everyone like in a fire drill?

None of that is bad and I'm really having a hard time imagining how someone could feel uncomfortable doing any of that, yet all of that is considered hazing. Why?

OK, I'm going to hush because I'm starting to ask more questions than I'm answering.

[justmyo]

I find this a very interesting question.The fact of the matter is that new membership is the bloodline of all greek lettered organiations.Without new membership any organization would only last for so long,as our older members die out and other become inactive for whatever reason,the organization would truly not last very long.There has to be something that can be done that will insure future membership initiation.The role of Fraternities has not changed from the time of conception,they still serve the same purpose.
We are now part of a society that frowns upon anything that causes physical or memtal anguish to any group of people.It is not fair that college students who want to join a greek lettered organization should have to go through anything different than one who wants to join the school glee club or other student organization.Is it unfair to this particular group of students? this is the question you must ask yourself.I am sure that a lot of tradition has been lost from the elimination of pledging as well as from the eradication of hazing.The question is,can we have one without the other?I think not.I think those who want to haze will find a loophole around any law against it.

The fanfare that comes along with the celebration new membership can still be obtained with the current bans against pledging.The second question is,What is hazing?Is a celebration rite considered hazing? We all know what is exceptable and what is not.The National bodies of all greek lettered organiations have taken a Zero tolerance policy against hazing.This must be taken seriously and we must abide by the bylaws set fourth by our National Bodies.We must never stop making new members,If the only way you can make new members is by not pledging or hazing than so be it.We should not spite ourselves by taking on the attitude that if we can't haze then we wont make members.We are only spiting ourselves.
We must render on to Caesar,follow the laws that the people we have elected set fourth.Make some new members and do it with a glad heart.

[dirtymike1906]

Very good points 12dn and justmyo!

12dn, your points about parenting and teaching made me visualize the military as another arena in which pledging/hazing is sanctioned.

And Justmyo, I agree with your views on spite. I do remember a time, however, when "pledging" was totally exclusive from "hazing."

I think that what now separates BGLOs from other areas of society where "pledging" is endorsed is "purpose." In many ways, we have lost our direction. Many are compelled to join only to step, chant, wear a t-shirt, and turn out next year's Greek Show, only to never be seen again shortly after graduation. Some of us are the ultimate groupies--we only aspire to rub elbows with fame, rather than partake in the creation and maintenance. Whereas people are able to agree with forms of "hazing" in education, military, etc. for a noble "purpose," they see little place for similar activities on a greek level.

[The Original Ape]

Originally posted by AlMighty14:
Maybe if they allowed pledging to brought back out into the open where it could be properly monitored and regulated, a lot of the problems they find themselves faced with will dissappear.. they are plently of things they did during the "good ole days" that promoted not only sisterhood/brotherhood from the outside looking in but vice/versa as well, and it seems to me that it would make the experience ("pledging" not hazing)all that much mo' betta, besides the less one has to hide the less mess they can hopefully get into... what do u think???

YOU might have the answer!!!!!!! I like your idea. I think we'd still have a problem though because there are alot of dudes out there that have bytch-like attitudes; and they'll do ANYTHING to get in as EASY and as quick as they can-even if it includes accusing the chapter of hazing. You don't know who they are cause every prospective tries to sell himself off as being hard.

I would love to see that happen, but somebody somewhere would phuck it up somehow.



[This message has been edited by The Original Ape (edited May 31, 2001).]

[mccoyred]

Folks, what I don't understand is:

Why take everything underground instead of just eliminating the hazing?

In other words, MIP CAN be conducted above ground which SHOULD eliminate HAZING. But I guess intake above ground is considered pledging which has become synonymous with hazing which is illegeal.

Joining a BGLO is a LIFETIME COMMITTMENT and goes much deeper than who you hang out with. Frats/sorors should be able to call on each other for anything, even things our biological families may not even do. Therefore there SHOULD be a more substantial requirement for joining the band or the art club. As we all know, our orgs are more than just clubs.

In this litiguous, 'me phi me' society, the long list of what is considered hazing is ridiculous and never would have passed muster as little as 15 years ago. Yes, we must change with society however we should not allow society to change us so that we are no longer recognizable to our Founders.


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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[The Original Ape]

McCoyred: the long list of what is considered hazing is ridiculous and never would have
passed muster as little as 15 years ago.


I AGREE. I AGREE!!! What bothers me is how could the NPHC allow ANYONE to dictate what is hazing without respect to OUR culture. Where were their heads, and hearts?

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by The Original Ape:
Have any of you out there thought about the possibility of the end of BGLOs? It's possible, thanks to hazing laws. I aint hatin' pledging; but apparently the people out there don't know how to do it right. How would you feel if they ALL stopped taking new members?

Can a Me phi Me get in on this convo?

I personally don't think stopping all new member intake will stop hazing. One needs only look at this and other internet greek related sites to find out why I say this. Folks (greek and non greek) separate themselves into "pledged" vs. "straight intake". Typically the pledged folks get the most "respect". New members are quick to qualify anything they say with a "yeah I pledged". The "old" above ground process is romanticized and glorified by neos and old heads alike, and perpetuated by, I think, the old heads who like to swap war stories. (See http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/...ML/000261.html for examples. When potential members see this kind of talk they say "Ohhhh I want that too." which leads to folks who welcome, if not beg to be hazed/pledged (see Aspire's question on this forum http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/...ML/000259.html ) If the real intent is to stop hazing, then I think the more appropriate course of action would be to prevent current members from talking about their process in open forums or mixed company. You can't miss/want what you don't know about. Wait a minute...isn't that something called discretion?? Where have I heard that word before?!?!