islamic discussion (off shot of the condi discussion)

[_Opi_]

Originally posted by Pike1483
Bush isn't fighting a "Holy War against the Islamic World," he's protecting our country from terrorists who are fighting a "Holy War" against us. Read the Koran-- it's all in there.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/ricebio.html

Umm, did I read that correctly? For a person who's read the Koran, can you tell me which verse(s) you're talking about (assuming of course, YOU'VE read the Koran, because if you didn't ....that would be a stupid thing to say).


I will be waiting for a good response.

Moderator Note: OPI did not start this discussion. Due to me being an idiot and accidently deleting the Condi thread, everything is now a mess.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by _Opi_
...can you tell me which verse(s) you're talking about...

I'd like to know more about that, myself. Having never read the Koran, I am still under the impression that many/most of the things going on presently are specifically against its teachings and those of Islam.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by _Opi_
Umm, did I read that correctly? For a person who's read the Koran, can you tell me which verse(s) you're talking about (assuming of course, YOU'VE read the Koran, because if you didn't ....that would be a stupid thing to say).


I will be waiting for a good response.

Ya hit it right on the head, _Opi_... a superficial reading of a passage in the Holy Qu'ran is just as dangerous as a superficial reading of a passage from the Holy Bible - subject to extreme misinterpretation.

Just as we have Bible-thumping fundamentalist Christians, the Islamic world has its own problem with Koran-thumping fundamentalist mullahs.

And no, I'm not a Muslim, though I do have a copy of the Qu'ran in my library next to the Holy Bible.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I'd like to know more about that, myself. Having never read the Koran, I am still under the impression that many/most of the things going on presently are specifically against its teachings and those of Islam.

Jihad?

-Rudey

[AlphaSigOU]

One of many passages in the Holy Qu'ran:

Surah II, 190-193

190. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for God loveth not transgressors.

191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. But fight them not at the Sacred Mosque [Mecca] unless they first fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192. But if they cease, God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

193. And fight them on until there is no more tumult and oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God. But if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

A superficial reading this would be interpreted as a justification for the insurgents to go after the hated infidel Americans. Below is an interpretation of jihad, according to religious scholar Abdullah Yusuf Ali (notes 1270 and 1271 of Surah IX:20) :

1270. Here is a good description of Jihad. It may require fighting in God's cause, as a form of self-sacrifice. But its essence consists in (1) a true and sincere Faith, which so fixes its gaze on God, that all selfish or worldly motives seem paltry and fade away, and (2) an earnest and ceaseless activity, involving the sacrifice (if need be) of life, person and property, in the service of God. Mere brutal fighting is opposed to the whole spirit of jihad, while the sincere scholar's pen or preacher's voice or wealthy man's contributions may be the most valuable forms of Jihad. (Emphasis added.)

1271. Those who strive and suffer in God's cause are promised (1) a mercy specially from Himself, (2) His own good pleasure, (3) gardens of perpetual delight (4) the supreme reward, God's own presence or nearness. These are, in gradation: (1) is a special mercy, higher than flows out to all creatures; (2) is a consciouscness of God's good pleasure, which raises the soul above itself; (3) is that state of permanent physical assurance, which is typified by gardens of perpetual delight, and (4) is the final bliss, which is the presence of God Himself, or, in Sufi language didar-i-Ilahi, the sight of God Himself.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Rudey
Jihad?

I know the word. I'd like to know how it's used in the Koran.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I know the word. I'd like to know how it's used in the Koran.

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that "jihad" means "personal struggle." Its supposed to refer to an individuals efforts to become a better human being. Bin Laden types have broadened the definition to mean a "struggle, by absolutely any means necessary, to fulfill the will of Allah." I believe that most Muslims would find such a reinterpretation offensive.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I know the word. I'd like to know how it's used in the Koran.

Listen, my point is that the religion is up for interpretation. There are people who believe killing women who are raped is acceptable and this belief is widely accepted and administered in many religious communities. Many mosques blare the call of jihad and to root out the infidels and talk of the many virgins that will be received upon a murder's/martyr's death.

So call it an aberration from the norm of peace if you want, but these men, many more learned in the Koran, would beg to disagree with how you view them.

-Rudey

[Pike1483]

Allrighty, people, this is Greek Chat, not Politically-Correct-Chat. I'm not saying that every Muslim is a terrorist. Far from it. There are lots of good peaceful Muslims. I was simply making a point that the terrorists we are fighting are fighting a "Holy War" against us. They whole-heartedly believe that they are fighting a Holy War against us and that this will get them into heaven. I was making this point since IowaStatePhiPsi falsely stated that Bush was fighting a "Holy War against the Islamic world."

If you want to see more of where I'm coming from as far as the Koran goes, read the book of Surah.

For a related artical check out: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1100.htm The artical is on a Christian-based website, so I'm sure many of you will be turned off to it because of that, but please try and read the whole thing because it is a very good read and gives one very good perspective on this whole issue.

I'll try and comment more on this and the koran and all that stuff later if anyone is still interested, but I've got an organic chemistry test tomorrow, and need to do some hard-core studying.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by Pike1483
If you want to see more of where I'm coming from as far as the Koran goes, read the book of Surah.

Unlike our Holy Bible, the Qu'ran does not have individually-named books; the word "surah" loosely translates to 'chapter'.

I agree with ya... not all Muslims are terrorists. It's the hotheads who have other ulterior motives, while wrapping themselves in the cloak of religion that are giving Islam a bad name.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Pike1483
For a related artical check out: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1100.htm The artical is on a Christian-based website, so I'm sure many of you will be turned off to it because of that, but please try and read the whole thing because it is a very good read and gives one very good perspective on this whole issue.

I'll try and comment more on this and the koran and all that stuff later if anyone is still interested, but I've got an organic chemistry test tomorrow, and need to do some hard-core studying.

As they say a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...

In this case the author of the article selected passages that support the allegation that Islam is a violent religion... problem is you can do the same thing with the Torah or the Bible as well. The author however did not provide any context to the quotes, nor does she even hint at statements in the Qu'ran that would counter her arguement(s).

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Pike1483
Allrighty, people, this is Greek Chat, not Politically-Correct-Chat. I'm not saying that every Muslim is a terrorist. Far from it. There are lots of good peaceful Muslims. I was simply making a point that the terrorists we are fighting are fighting a "Holy War" against us. They whole-heartedly believe that they are fighting a Holy War against us and that this will get them into heaven. I was making this point since IowaStatePhiPsi falsely stated that Bush was fighting a "Holy War against the Islamic world."

If you want to see more of where I'm coming from as far as the Koran goes, read the book of Surah.

For a related artical check out: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1100.htm The artical is on a Christian-based website, so I'm sure many of you will be turned off to it because of that, but please try and read the whole thing because it is a very good read and gives one very good perspective on this whole issue.

I'll try and comment more on this and the koran and all that stuff later if anyone is still interested, but I've got an organic chemistry test tomorrow, and need to do some hard-core studying.

Uhm, surah is not a "book." And please don't use the ever convinient anti-PC argument to cover up your lack of knowledge about Islam.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by Pike1483
Allrighty, people, this is Greek Chat, not Politically-Correct-Chat. I'm not saying that every Muslim is a terrorist. Far from it. There are lots of good peaceful Muslims. I was simply making a point that the terrorists we are fighting are fighting a "Holy War" against us. They whole-heartedly believe that they are fighting a Holy War against us and that this will get them into heaven. I was making this point since IowaStatePhiPsi falsely stated that Bush was fighting a "Holy War against the Islamic world."

If you want to see more of where I'm coming from as far as the Koran goes, read the book of Surah.

For a related artical check out: http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1100.htm The artical is on a Christian-based website, so I'm sure many of you will be turned off to it because of that, but please try and read the whole thing because it is a very good read and gives one very good perspective on this whole issue.

I'll try and comment more on this and the koran and all that stuff later if anyone is still interested, but I've got an organic chemistry test tomorrow, and need to do some hard-core studying.

Because no Christians have ever fought Holy Wars based on false interpretation of the Bible.

How does it feel to be so righteous all the time?

[Pike1483]

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not an expert on the Koran (as proved by my earlier Surah blunder). I never said I was. I simply said I had studied it, which I have. Based on what I've learned from stuff, I can see why the terrorists hate us and think us infidels. And once again I'm not bashing the whole Muslim religion, I'm just simply stating my interpretation of it. If they're not fighting a "holy war" against us, then what are they doing? If anyone is an expert on the Koran, please explain this to me. I'm also not claiming that Christians have never persecuted anyone.
Mainly I was stating that Bush is not fighting a "holy war" against Islam as someone stated earlier. It seems to me that everyone thinks it's okay to bash Bush's religion, but it's never appropriate to even question somebody else's religion.

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by Pike1483
Okay, I'll admit that I'm not an expert on the Koran (as proved by my earlier Surah blunder). I never said I was. I simply said I had studied it, which I have. Based on what I've learned from stuff, I can see why the terrorists hate us and think us infidels. And once again I'm not bashing the whole Muslim religion, I'm just simply stating my interpretation of it. If they're not fighting a "holy war" against us, then what are they doing? If anyone is an expert on the Koran, please explain this to me. I'm also not claiming that Christians have never persecuted anyone..

Al-Qaeda has violated, imho, the just war doctrine which is contained in the Qur'an.

In particular, the declaration of war can only be initiated by head of states. Qur'an, when it come to warfare, is a very statecentric document. It also ordained that warfare must be the last resort. It is also interesting, something you don't hear, warfare or force is not a permitted instrument for advancing Islam. Consider this:

Invite (all) to the Way
Of thy Lord with wisdon
And beautiful preaching;
And argue with them in ways that are best
And most gracious (16: 125)

Let there be no compulsion
In religion: Truth stands out
Clear from Error: (2: 256)

The just ad bellum tradition in Islam is very similar to the western tradition: just cause, right intent, proper authority, and discrimination in the use of force.