Interesting article

[freethinker]

Someone's thoughts on the Old South...

The Stouthouse.

[KABillyMac]

Nice column by a little pansy ass liberal that attempts to sound educated by throwing around a few two dollar words, only to screw up the whole thing by ending the column something a la Larry Flynt.

To the author of this article: Boy, what you need to do is get the hell out of that 8 by 8 concrete wall dorm room and get some kind of dose of reality other than the internet and your "Magic" trading cards. If you think for a minute that we as southerners dont know what happened in the civil war and who won, then your sorry ass is sorely mistaken So you stay in your little dark, sad, depressing world, and I will stay in mine.

[Lil_G]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
Nice column by a little pansy ass liberal that attempts to sound educated by throwing around a few two dollar words, only to screw up the whole thing by ending the column something a la Larry Flynt.

To the author of this article: Boy, what you need to do is get the hell out of that 8 by 8 concrete wall dorm room and get some kind of dose of reality other than the internet and your "Magic" trading cards. If you think for a minute that we as southerners dont know what happened in the civil war and who won, then your sorry ass is sorely mistaken So you stay in your little dark, sad, depressing world, and I will stay in mine.

no kidding, what kind of a loser spends his time juxtaposing real life through action figures...

here's my thoughts on this guy: overweight male, dateless wonder, has all the star treks and star wars on tape and idolizes the obese 'comic-book guy' on the simpsons.

oh yeah can't forget his great skill of ambidextrous in his hands.

[West Texas KA]

Ya this article really pisses me off. He thinks we are uneducated. Well if he thinks that the values of the south are about the "wanton rape of black women" then he is totally ignorant of the truth. People that think they are so smart like that piss me off because they are usually the most stupid people.
"For God and the Ladies"

Kappa Alpha Order

P.S. Can you respond to that because I would be really intersted to see what someone like Russel Brown or Dick Wilson would have to say to him

[freethinker]

Read the column again---it's made fairly clear that I grew up in the South. To tell the truth, I'm pretty far politically from being a "pansy-ass liberal," even if I actually *do* have the Star Wars movies on VHS, though the action figures on The Stouthouse aren't mine.

Of course, neither is the lovely young lady who figures so prominently on its pages, but I suppose we all can't have a dick-oriented life like Lil_G up there.

West Texas KA, you give me hope, however. For a while, I thought that honest intellectual debate from frat guys was out of the question.

I used to be all about "Southern rights," and how the flag stood for heritage, not hate.

Then, I attended the rededication of my local Confederate veterans' memorial (in Statesboro, GA if any of you are interested), and my views changed.

I saw someone wearing a t-shirt with a picture of the U.S. Capitol flying the stars and bars, captioned "You have your dream and I have mine."

That's really what the "Old South" is about now, isn't it? An attempt at social rebellion after a failed attempt at governmental rebellion. Hell, I just grew my hair long for a while to piss people off.

I'll clarify. Let's say that I fervently, truly believe that Nazi Germany stood not for the annihilation of the Jewish people and world subjugation, but just for a strong Germany. As such, I decide to put a large swastika on a flag pole outside of my house.

My house'll probably get burned down. Why? Because no matter what I or my group of friends believes, the general societal convention surrounding swastikas is one of strictly bad, very bad things.

The same thing applies for wearing Confederate uniforms in public, unless you're doing a legit historical service by reenacting. To the vast majority of Americans, Confederate regalia stands for slavery and racial discrimination, not any kind of "Southern gentleman"-esque values.

If my father opens a door for a lady, telling her "Aftuh you, ma'am," in his Southern drawl, he's being a Southern gentleman. If he wears a Confederate uniform (not that he would, just an example here), he'll be targeted as a cracker-ass racist by the average person.

As such, why would anyone with an ounce of good sense dress in such a manner, unless they want to either distress others and/or look bad themselves? And people wonder when "those damned Yankees" stereotype Southerners as morons...

[KABillyMac]

Freethinker, you are too narrow minded to look outside the common idiotic views of Confederate regailia. No argument here that to people like you, it stands for hate. Just because you are born in the South doesnt make you an expert on the general feeling of all Southerners, this statement is directed toward your comment that at one time you understood that the "stars and bars" stood for heritage, and not hate.

Moreso, you dont understand the history and feeling of Old South. Old South is a formal that was spawned by the men of the Order in celebration of the post war feeling of the "New South" in an attempt to preserve the honor and heritage which was the "Old South". Imagine if you will the time period that Old South blossomed. It came to be right around the time that "Gone With the Wind" was released. This movie sparked the young men of the South to have a celebration honoring the feeling of the Lost Cause and the true Southern Gentleman. Confederate regailia and hoop dresses are just symbols of that time period. Often they are confused with pure hate, but this is not so. They themselves serve as regalia for a sort of travel back in time.

Ive never given my view on the War here on this board, but by hell, Im going to now.

The beautiful world of grace and honor, wich was the Old South, came to be destroyed by a brutal war, an unavoidabble war with the materialistic North. The War came as a diffrence of opinion between the two sections in regard to the limitations of the federal government. It arose as a contest between the ideas of cetralization and states rights. When the South seceeded, it vindicated the Constitution, which had guaranteed the right of secession. But also the Civil War came as an attempt by unprincipled Northern men, spurred on by ambition and greed, to subjugate and bring havoc on the South. No need for a argument concerning the Civil War here was needed, but for the sake of the argument as a whole, I wanted my opinion stated.

Its chivalry, grace, and honor man. Not hate, rape, and destruction. Its a celebration of who we were, never forgetting who we are now. You think we are all these back woods hillbillies that think that if the South would have won we would have had it made. This just isnt so.

When you begin to turn you back on who you are and where you come from, your nothing but a petty, vain, uneducated, and narrow minded.

You wanted your educated comment, there you go. Now go crawl back under your keyboard and draw more sterotypical conclusions about sorority women, since that seems to be the subject of your next article.

[freethinker]

Time's a bit short, so I'll leave a longer reply tomorrow, but I have to point out one fact:

"Gone with the Wind" was a movie.

[KABillyMac]

You continue to miss the point

[The Icon]

I don't see what the argument is. Opinions on the American Greek system aside, the old South was a poverty stricken, poor region that was supported on slavery. Not just black slaves either. I'm talking white indentured servants as well. Why in God's name celebrate that? Because some movie or tired cliche about the pre-Civil War south painted a rosey picture?

If you are a Greek, that implies thaat you attended a university or college. Any history class will tell you these same things.

[KABillyMac]

Oh and the inner city north wasnt poverty stricken? Besides the fact that your last sentance made absolutely no damn sense, and basically neither did your entire post, I think it has no relevance here. If we wanted to celebrate the poverty of any region we would run around in high waters and rope belts you moron.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
Oh and the inner city north wasnt poverty stricken? Besides the fact that your last sentance made absolutely no damn sense, and basically neither did your entire post, I think it has no relevance here. If we wanted to celebrate the poverty of any region we would run around in high waters and rope belts you moron.

What didn't make sense? These really was nothing "glorious" about the old south. Period. And no one goes around celebrating the inner city northern states of the time period either. Tell me who does that, please. My last sentence made perfect sense. Greeks are a product of being in an institute of higher learning, therefore, history classes, at some point, had to be taken. If one pays attention in history class, all of this is made clear. There's nothing liberal or one sided about it.

Tell you what. I really am interested in what morals and ideals the "Old South" stood for. Better yet, tell me some that were actually practiced. After all, it's easy to say that one has strong morals and wonderful ideal, but practicing them is something else entirely. Because I have yet to see any historical document that says that the "Old South" was anything but a corrupt, racist dying system that, in the long term, could not sustain itself even if it had managed to succesfuly form an independent nation.

[KABillyMac]

That is a one sided view on the South. Gentility, chivialry, honor, and courtesy. There are some traits to be celebrated.

[The Icon]

Originally posted by KABillyMac
That is a one sided view on the South. Gentility, chivialry, honor, and courtesy. There are some traits to be celebrated.

At this point you're talking yourself in circles. I said site me examples. Giving a list of tired, meaningless words hardly qualifies.

You're parroting everything your frat manual says that KA stands for. Again, AS I SAID BEFORE, I want concrete examples.

[KABillyMac]

If anyone is talking themselves in circles here it is you. How in the hell do you expect to argue a point such as your making without concrete examples yourself? Do you think that I know every act of chivalry that has ever been commtted in the South? Can I look facts like that up in some sort of book like " Every Act of Gentility and Chivalry Committed in the South From The Dawn of Time till Now" Your argument is the only one here that is one sided. I freely admit that not every act commited by every man in the South was what could be considered "chivalrous" but you on the other hand dont seem to view it that way. You view the South as a poverty stricken cesspool with absolutely nothing to offer its future generations. If the South was so damn poverty stricken then why in the hell did the north fight so friggin hard to keep it? Trust me, it wasnt for the patriotism of the union.

[freethinker]

Icon, here's a "concrete example" for you, taken from a post-Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression) interview with a slave:

WESLEY NORRIS Interviewed, 1866(?) b. Virginia Enslaved: Virginia

It has frequently been represented by the friends and admirers of Robert E. Lee, late an officer in the rebel army, that, although a slaveholder, his treatment of his chattels was invariably kind and humane. The subjoined statement, taken from the lips of one of his former slaves, indicates the real character of the man:

"My name is Wesley Norris; I was born a slave on the plantation of George Parke Custis; after the death of Mr. Custis, Gen. Lee, who had been made executor of the estate, assumed control of the slaves, in number about seventy; it was the general impression among the slaves of Mr. Custis that on his death they should be forever free; in fact this statement had been made to them by Mr. C. years before; at his death we were informed by Gen. Lee that by the conditions of the will we must remain slaves for five years; I remained with Gen. Lee for about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free; he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to 'lay it on well,' an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done. After this my cousin and myself were sent to Hanover.

Granted, the perspective may be a little skewed, seeing as Mr. Norris was presumably interviewed by a Northerner in 1866, immediately after the war---there may have been some political leanings towards making Gen. Lee look bad. Nonetheless, it's something to think about, and a "concrete example."

Or, take this press release, from KA's own Web site:

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 18, 2002
Contact: Ashley Worboys
(540) 463-1865

Kappa Alpha Order Closes University of Tennessee's Pi Chapter

Lexington, Va. - Officials of Kappa Alpha Order announced today the Pi chapter located at the University of Tennessee has been closed for a period of two years. The decision was reached after an investigation into the chapter last month revealed some members violated University and Fraternity policy.

"These are serious issues that need disciplinary attention," said Larry Wiese, executive director of Kappa Alpha Order's National Headquarters. "We needed to put an end to the negative behavior. Through continued discussions with Pi chapter alumni and members of Kappa Alpha Order's national staff, we determined closing the chapter was the best course of action."

Kappa Alpha officials first discovered the possibility of fraternity violations in February. A local alumni's report followed along with a preliminary investigation. The report described activities involving alcohol and a strip dancer inside the fraternity house. KA's national organization suspended the local chapter immediately and notified University officials.

Wiese said no final decision has been made on what will happen to the chapter's house but the national office has been working with the University and local alumni on that matter.

"The chapter will be reinstated after the cooling off period," said Wiese. "We will evaluate that possibility in two years."

Kappa Alpha Order was founded in 1865 in Lexington, Va. and is a
national men's collegiate fraternity with 127 chapters from Princeton, New Jersey to Seattle, Washington. Kappa Alpha Order boasts 5,000 undergraduates and 100,000 living alumni members.

What the press release doesn't mention, however, are gambling, cock fighting (with birds, I presume), weekly visits by strippers, and how brothers recuited local homeless men for impromptu "Fight Club" boxing shows.

To quote Wired: "The bums were recruited, liquored up, given large boxing gloves and then, as one member said, 'we let them go to town.'"

I guess slaves weren't available.

One member of the chapter spoke up to the UTK Daily Beacon about the gambling and cock fights in the basement (okay, maybe it wasn't chickens): "It wasn't that big of a deal with nationals. They let us go with that," [UTK KA Chapter President Patrick] Diener said.

I'll argue however, that the national office did the right thing by kicking the chapter. Funny how that last paragraph mentions cities that are assuredly "Yankee" strongholds.

Speaking of slavery and old times there best left forgotten, how about the five-year suspension of the University of North Texas chapter?

Seems that "approximately 35 Kappa Alpha members shouted racial slurs at African-American football recruits who were touring the student union," according to the Daily Texan.

Get this---not only were they wearing their letters, they were waving a Confederate flag at the time (presumably one of the battle variety).

To quote "The Battalion," "The accusation of racism is the fourth disciplinary violation Kalpha Alpha has faced at UNT. In 1990, Kalpha Alpha was placed on a two-year probation for campus alcohol violations. In Nov. 1996, a Kappa Alpha pledge book was found containing racist comments made by fraternity members. In 1998, the fraternity was placed on a two-year probation for allegations of hazing and alcohol abuse. The list of violations this fraternity has committed is ridiculously long."

Just down the street at Southwestern Texas, KA was suspended for "safety and alcohol violations and allegations of physical abuse and racist conduct." Both in the same month---I'm impressed.

Let's also not forget the Bowling Green KA brother arrested for setting fire to his own frat house.

Here's a great quote from that chapter's president, John Deeb: "The gentlemen in this room have very positive feelings for him."

Down in lovely Alabama, my neighboring state, their Supreme Court ruled that a KA brother couldn't sue the fraternity for hazing. Why? Because he'd endured it an entire school year.

A little closer to my lovely Statesboro, GA home, the Emory University KA chapter found themselves in a flap because their yearbook photo featured a member in blackface.

Here's the picture in question:

To quote columnist Amos Jones, "Emory will be a better university with KA gone. If KA remains, we're surely headed for an escalation of the racial tensions they delight in igniting."

In a less spectacular incident, App State's KA and Sigma Nu chapters both got the boot (may God damn those Mountaineers to hell) after "host[ing] an off-campus 'bid party' Feb. 4 and fail[ing] to provide security at the party, maintain a guest list or monitor underage drinking."

Hope this helps, Icon---true Southern values at work. Hell, I just say "yes, sir" and "no, ma'am" a whole lot. Maybe I should start drinking more and get a rebel flag tattooed somewhere on me.