Hazing -- Good or bad?

[SouthernSweet]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

People who like to get hazed are usually the ones who like to haze others, so they ususally get blackballed for something else before it's an issue, b/c there are other indicators. No one who will haze future pledges is allowed in the first place.

Hazing is a cop-out anyway. So you ate kitty-litter, so what? All that proves is you're a dumbass for eating the kitty-litter. That is no substitute for living up to what you say you will do.

That news reporter Al...aahhhh! I can't think of his last name. He's the one that is also the weather guy on either the Today show or Good Morning America.

He did a story on fraternity and sorority hazing, which was really over-the-top stuff...pretty much the worst stories I have ever heard....they featured one guy that turned up dead after he had divulged fraternity secrets to non-members, but his death was highly suspicious and they weren't 100% sure if he committed suicide or if someone murdered him.

Anyway, this particular school didn't even have a major problem with hazing..but after the active's death (he wasn't a pledge), they shut the Greek system down at the school, which previously had a huge presence on campus.

I don't know if anyone has seen that story or not, and granted it is NOT typical and the stories were particularly tragic, and it was a difficult thing to watch.

[Coramoor]

Seems to me that guys and girls go into pledging with a very different expectation.

In general the fraternities that are known to be easy to get into to have the hardest time recruiting memebers. They go through rush basically telling people how easy pledging is...and then wonder why they get 4 pledges.

On the other hand the frats that have a reputation of being hard to get into practically have pledges beating down their door to get a bid. The fraternities don't tell them how bad or hard it is.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by Coramoor

Seems to me that guys and girls go into pledging with a very different expectation.

In general the fraternities that are known to be easy to get into to have the hardest time recruiting memebers. They go through rush basically telling people how easy pledging is...and then wonder why they get 4 pledges.

On the other hand the frats that have a reputation of being hard to get into practically have pledges beating down their door to get a bid. The fraternities don't tell them how bad or hard it is.

This is an interesting statement to say the least.

Maybe it is the insecurity of PNMs who feel that they must be punished to be a member.

If that is the case, I consider them not good enough to be members of many Frateritys and Sororitys in my thinking.

To want to be degraded is not normal is it?

In the words of Kevin Bacon in Animal House at the Omegas, "Thank You Sir, May I Have Another"!

If some think the majority want to be treated this way, I would be sadly mistaken, it is just a few and will not last forever.

[icebrain]

My take on the matter, shared with a good friend at UC, is that there are only three organizations (maybe four) that have justification for hazing:

The military
Law enforcement
Fire department
CIA and other such orgs (for field positions, at least)

Reason being, they need to know how you will respond under stress and in situations that may leave you or your buddies dead.

Our organization's take is that anyone who feels he needs to abuse or ridicule someone for no other reason than being a pledge trying to join an organization based on values such as ours is that we don't want him. We used to have problems with this in the past, and we realized it was hurting us badly. Essentially, to haze is to violate the basic values that we are based upon.

[bows&toes]

Originally Posted by icebrain

My take on the matter, shared with a good friend at UC, is that there are only three organizations (maybe four) that have justification for hazing:

The military
Law enforcement
Fire department
CIA and other such orgs (for field positions, at least)

Reason being, they need to know how you will respond under stress and in situations that may leave you or your buddies dead.

Our organization's take is that anyone who feels he needs to abuse or ridicule someone for no other reason than being a pledge trying to join an organization based on values such as ours is that we don't want him. We used to have problems with this in the past, and we realized it was hurting us badly. Essentially, to haze is to violate the basic values that we are based upon.

Fraternities "haze" to know how you will respond under stress as well. Will you put yourself on the line for your brothers, or be a coward? There is no better way to see somebodies REAL character then to put them in a difficult situation and see how they act. How else are you supposed to know that you can really trust your own pledge brothers? Because they took some stupid oath and know the same ritual as you? Gimme a break.

[Coramoor]

Tom,

I don't think it's a matter of 'wanting to be punished' to be a member. It's a matter of if anyone can do it....why would I want to be apart of that?

For example, the Marines never have any problem meeting enlistment expectations because they are known for being the best and the hardest to get into. On the other hand Army/Navy/AF usually struggle to make the minimum because anyone can enlist and make it through.

The aura of selectiveness and difficulty make rushees that only want to be around other's that take pride in their accomplishments pledge that fraternity.

[BirdDog]

Hazing builds character and creats a bond for the pledges because of the stress they face together. Most of the fraternities I know arn't respected by other fraternities if they don't haze.

I've known kids who were hit with belt if they looked a brother in the eyes, tons of fraternities have "pledge doors", calling them by "pledge" is not unusual, it just happens.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BirdDog

Hazing builds character and creats a bond for the pledges because of the stress they face together. Most of the fraternities I know arn't respected by other fraternities if they don't haze.

I've known kids who were hit with belt if they looked a brother in the eyes, tons of fraternities have "pledge doors", calling them by "pledge" is not unusual, it just happens.

I'd rather this be a discussion of mention of hazing during recruitment as it has been. Does your group admit that it hazes during rush? If so, how? If not, why?

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by SouthernSweet

That news reporter Al...aahhhh! I can't think of his last name. He's the one that is also the weather guy on either the Today show or Good Morning America.

He did a story on fraternity and sorority hazing, which was really over-the-top stuff...pretty much the worst stories I have ever heard....they featured one guy that turned up dead after he had divulged fraternity secrets to non-members, but his death was highly suspicious and they weren't 100% sure if he committed suicide or if someone murdered him.

Anyway, this particular school didn't even have a major problem with hazing..but after the active's death (he wasn't a pledge), they shut the Greek system down at the school, which previously had a huge presence on campus.

I don't know if anyone has seen that story or not, and granted it is NOT typical and the stories were particularly tragic, and it was a difficult thing to watch.

I definitely saw that report--it was Al Roker who did it. The whole fraternity "hazing" incident was ridiculous. I found myself more appalled at the high school hazing incident than the stories about the fraternities or sororities. The fact that even the coach of the team partook in the hazing was downright horrible, and I was sickened by the way it was handled by the administration at the school.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by bows&toes

Fraternities "haze" to know how you will respond under stress as well. Will you put yourself on the line for your brothers, or be a coward? There is no better way to see somebodies REAL character then to put them in a difficult situation and see how they act. How else are you supposed to know that you can really trust your own pledge brothers? Because they took some stupid oath and know the same ritual as you? Gimme a break.

Bpws&Toes: I did not know that GLO's "go to war". Perhaps in 1861 they did, but not now.
And yes, we (my chapter) did have a war! The media called it a riot.. And you know what? Our officers kept everyone inside the house while two other GLO's attacked us!
Well over 1/2 of our windows were broken but no one made it into the house and we never left it.
I put my faith in our officers and my Brothers, not because of any hazing, but because they were (and are ) my Brothers!

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Coramoor

Tom,

I don't think it's a matter of 'wanting to be punished' to be a member. It's a matter of if anyone can do it....why would I want to be apart of that?

For example, the Marines never have any problem meeting enlistment expectations because they are known for being the best and the hardest to get into. On the other hand Army/Navy/AF usually struggle to make the minimum because anyone can enlist and make it through.

The aura of selectiveness and difficulty make rushees that only want to be around other's that take pride in their accomplishments pledge that fraternity.

Not to pick on you Coramoor-just easier to quote you than many others.

There seem, after reading saveral postings, some confusion on Military training and military hazing.
Yes, USMC, SEALS, Airbourne, Rangers, Delta et al all have very hard training programs.
Everyone in those programs are not college students, gererally older than raw recuits, are at least double voluntiers, and some have earned multiple patches of the above.

Training is very hard, but generally is not hazing. While hazing does go on in the military, it is against military code of conduct. And it does get enforced. At least three members of a sub crew were just CM for it.

There are several hazing threads here with links in them or just do a search for hazing sites so you can see just what hazing is.

As for the OP, my chapter did not haze so it never came up during rush.

At least two other houses did, and to the best of my recall neither one said anything about it during rush.

[ncsupikes]

The line that most people around here use is "the most fun you never want to have again."

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by jon1856

There seem, after reading saveral postings, some confusion on Military training and military hazing.
Training is very hard, but generally is not hazing. While hazing does go on in the military, it is against military code of conduct. And it does get enforced. At least three members of a sub crew were just CM for it.

There are several hazing threads here with links in them or just do a search for hazing sites so you can see just what hazing is.

Hazing (based on the legal definition of the term that all of us must adhere to) occurs at every stage of the military. Cites like stophazing.org provide additional info and even discuss military hazing at every stage. Just because the perpetrators and victims of hazing don't come forward or don't define it as "hazing," doesn't make it not hazing (since we all have this legal definition to adhere to).

Basic training is meant to be difficult. But this difficult, almost no-holds-barred-for-the-sake-of-combat-training environment has allowed the military a lot of leeway. Too much Leeway (whether in the military or anywhere else) always opens the door to inappropriate conduct and hazing, whether hazing is against codes of conduct and anti-hazing is "enforced" or not. (Afterall, hazing is against GLOs' codes of conduct and anti-hazing is "enforced" in GLOs also. But we see that hazing is still rampid and widespread.)

[Nick Letcher]

I was never hazed and I am proud to say that. I have heard that a couple of the houses I looked at do haze. I feel lucky that I never had to deal with that b*llsh!t and people justifying it by saying "Hazing builds character." What nonsense. Maybe my fraternity was "easy to get into," but I would NEVER want to be a part of an organization that hazes. I can't understand why anyone would.

[bows&toes]

Originally Posted by Nick Letcher

I was never hazed and I am proud to say that. I have heard that a couple of the houses I looked at do haze. I feel lucky that I never had to deal with that b*llsh!t and people justifying it by saying "Hazing builds character." What nonsense. Maybe my fraternity was "easy to get into," but I would NEVER want to be a part of an organization that hazes. I can't understand why anyone would.

How can you call it "nonsense" if you have zero experience in dealing with it? That is why there are houses that don't haze, so guys like you have a place to go... You probably would not fit into a good southern SEC greek house.