Cutting heavily vs. not cutting at all...

[aephi alum]

I'm wondering what everyone's take is on heavy cutting vs. light or no cutting. leilanimoon's comment that AEPhi at her school isn't cutting anyone is what's making me wonder...

In my day, my chapter invited pretty much everyone back to round 2, cutting only women who didn't make grades or who showed an extreme lack of interest. (As a new chapter we were not obligated to use release figures.) When we made up our invite lists for pref, we were a lot more selective, and only invited women who we truly felt would be good sisters. Most if not all of the other sororities did likewise, inviting to round 2 as many PNMs as their release figures would allow, then being very selective when it came to pref.

I have seen a sorority at my school (thought of as the most popular) be extremely selective in whom they invited to pref, and as a result they were far from quota and got reprimanded by their nationals. I've also seen situations where sororities invite so many women to pref, and so many of them get their hearts set on 2 particular groups, that the number of names on the no-bid list is more than half of quota.

So what's your take? Is a sorority that cuts heavily considered desirable because it's "more exclusive" or is that sorority committing suicide? Does a sorority that invites everyone back really look like it will take all comers?

[sororitygirl2]

I think it is SO important for Panhell. to enforce that chapter's use release figures based on past returns... they work when they are followed.

As for a sorority cutting heavily, yes, it makes them look "exclusive" and girls do feel honored to be asked back if others weren't... but only a sorority that all the girls want to join can get away with it. If one of the less "cool" chapters decides to only invite back a select few, just so they look exclusive, they will most likely end up with a small to non-existent new member class.

Basically, a sorority is not considered desirable because it is more exclusive... it is more exclusive because it is desirable.

[AOIIalum]

Originally posted by aephi alum
So what's your take? Is a sorority that cuts heavily considered desirable because it's "more exclusive" or is that sorority committing suicide? Does a sorority that invites everyone back really look like it will take all comers?

Based on my own personal obeservations:

I think that a sorority that is rumored to invite everyone back may look like it takes anyone. Of course, we all know that appearances aren't always everything, but to some PNMs appearances often ARE everything. It's human nature. The spoken word is a scary thing. A newer chapter on campus often will invite back as many as they can, because they are trying to establish themselves. But, as XYZ becomes well-established, perhaps they start to cut heavier each year. Unfortunately, the perception that 'XYZ always invites everyone back' may stick around for years, even if it's not true. Am I making sense?

I also think that if a sorority cuts heavily they don't always appear "more exclusive." It depends on the sorority and the situation. There was one chapter on my campus that cut heavily for grades and had a considerably higher GPA cutoff than the other sororities. Definitely exclusive and for a good reason! Remember, this was back in the early-mid 80s, and honestly, grades weren't the emphasis back then that they are now. Still, they were honest about their GPA requirements so it wasn't a surprise to the PNMs. I always respected them for doing that.

I think that at my school at that time, the PNMs looked more at how many girls were waiting to go into each sorority before parties. They noticed if a sorority only had 2 parties on a 3 party night, or one pref instead of two. A sorority with 30-40 or more girls going to each pref (with quota in the high teens/low 20s then) got the "boy, everyone wants to be THERE." I truly don't think exclusivity figured into it at all. It's been a looong time though and I certainly could be wrong.

Christin

[FuzzieAlum]

I don't think a group should cut HEAVILY unless release numbers require it, but the PNMs definitely notice when a group doesn't cut at all. They think, "Oh, they just want girls, period, they must be desperate, it's not that they want ME." It's not just a desire to be part of an exclusive group; you also want to feel the sorority wants you specifically to join, not that they want members, period. We've seen lots of posts on here where girls were really impressed by meeting the president, girls remembering their names, etc. All that can make a group more desirable than being the most elite.

IMO, you can cut pretty lightly for the first cutting party (esp. if girls can be cut after first, since you barely met them). Cut for grades, cut the awful girls, cut the ones who were obviously disinterested in you. After that, how much you cut should depend on your return rate.

This applies most strongly where girls see their invites and then decide where to go. Otherwise, if a girl ranks Mu Mu really low and doesn't go back, she'll never know if they cut her or not. Although as we've seen on one thread here - if she does end up going back to Mu Mu, she'll wonder what the chapter was thinking.

Rushees are like dogs - they can smell fear and desperation. Er, I don't mean that as a slam on rushees - they're not like dogs in any other way!

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by aephi alum

So what's your take? Is a sorority that cuts heavily considered desirable because it's "more exclusive" or is that sorority committing suicide? Does a sorority that invites everyone back really look like it will take all comers?

Well, I cannot speak for all sororities at all schools, however XYZ at my school gets at least 20 new girls at formal rush, while the rest get around 10. Ironically, XYZ is the most selective, PNMs sense that. They don't commit suicide by doing so, however many PNM's do! They have the qualities that turns a lot of PNMs on. So yes in this case being more selective does make a sorority more desirable.

[carnation]

On the one hand, I see the need for release figures--there are some sororities that would string along girls they don't really want until prefs. On the other hand, I have seen the devastation wrought by heavy, early cutting. This causes many girls to drop out promptly; the shock of receiving very few invitations early in the game is horrible.

I think that if required cuts came a bit later, then PNMs might be more open to other groups; their egos wouldn't be so ripped up.

[CarolinaDG]

We're a smaller chapter on this campus, and from what I heard the same thing happened last year as far as invites. They were super-selective (this was when I went through, not to be egotistical) and even though the pledge class was a great one, they were 12 short of quota, and had they been just a little less selective, they would've easily met quota. But it made the other sororities notice. Especially since a lot of my pledge class preffed one of the larger sororities and still went DG. I know I personally want to make sure that the girl sitting next to me in chapter meetings is "DG quality" and I would be insulted if we just started taking anyone just so we met quota. There's a point where the numbers will come if the quality's there, and there's a point where the quality will be there if the numbers are... but there's also an equilibrium point as well.

[XOMichelle]

I know my chapter gets a lot of bad rap for not cutting a lot of people, but truthfully, the decision lies in the heart of each chapter member.

I personally am proud that we try and keep our minds open and give us more than 20 minutes to know a PNM. Obviously, you can't invite back people you really don't think are good fits (esp to pref), but I would rather invite a girl back to a second or third party to find out more about her, even if we didn't click right away. Obviously, release figures must be enforced, but I think not cutting shows humanity! You don't "cut" people in real life if you didn't have a thrilling conversation when you first met them.

ll,
M

[leilanimoon]

I think Fuzzie Alum explains exactly how I felt about Tri-Delt and AEPhi on my campus. Our conversations were always particularly painful and yet they kept inviting me back, making me think that they didn't want ME, specifically. moreso that I was just a number..who wants to feel like that. Even houses I wasn't invited back to made me feel like I was special, even if they were just putting on a front.

[carnation]

Originally posted by leilanimoon
I think Fuzzie Alum explains exactly how I felt about Tri-Delt and AEPhi on my campus. Our conversations were always particularly painful and yet they kept inviting me back, making me think that they didn't want ME, specifically. moreso that I was just a number..who wants to feel like that. Even houses I wasn't invited back to made me feel like I was special, even if they were just putting on a front.

You and FuzzieAlum have hit the nail on the head. I can remember being "chased" by a group, no other way to put it, at Arkansas before I went Greek. I had no desire to pledge them--I'd already dropped out of formal rush--and I could see that they were desperate and I felt that they didn't really care who they pledged as long as they had warm bodies. My cheerleading partner's girlfriend invited me over there for a COB event (I never would've attended had I not felt obligated because of him) and they extended a bid, which I turned down, after only briefly meeting me.

Then they kept it up! I mean, how many times do you have to say no? I felt sorry for them but when I pledged, I wanted it to be a group I was proud of.

PNMs should feel special and wanted.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

Funny, I was talking about this with my roommate (a Sigma Sigma Sigma) the other day, but about fraternities.

We were comparing fraternity numbers, and complaining that a lot of the men took in low numbers of pledges this year, with ONE exception -- which all the sororities will have to have their pledge mixers with, since it's the only group with a comparable number of pledges.

Most of the sororities on campus took in around 20 pledges, and Theta Chi took in around that many, as well. Kappa Sigma, though, for instance, picked up 7 boys this semester. The argument is that Theta Chi pledges many, then drops boys through the pledge process as they realize which ones are truly "brother material," whereas Kappa Sig tries to determine this beforehand and usually ends up with the entire pledge class getting initiated.

Don't know if there's actually any truth to it, though -- just our guesses.

[justamom]

So many "truths" in this thread.

CarolinaDG-. Especially since a lot of my pledge class preffed one of the larger sororities and still went DG. I know I personally want to make sure that the girl sitting next to me in chapter meetings is "DG quality" and I would be insulted if we just started taking anyone just so we met quota.
Is this a natioal policy? My daughter said something similar during their recrutment.

Carnation-Then they kept it up! I mean, how many times do you have to say no? I felt sorry for them but when I pledged, I wanted it to be a group I was proud of. I think this happens on a lot of campuses. I too agree, a PNM should feel special.


Dionysus- They don't commit suicide by doing so, however many PNM's do! They have the qualities that turns a lot of PNMs on. So yes in this case being more selective does make a sorority more desirable. I certainly agree with this-and THIS is a BIG problem!

FuzzieAlumI don't think a group should cut HEAVILY unless release numbers require it, but the PNMs definitely notice when a group doesn't cut at all. They think, "Oh, they just want girls, period, they must be desperate, it's not that they want ME." DITTO!

AOIIalum I agree with your entire post!!!I think that a sorority that is rumored to invite everyone back may look like it takes anyone. Of course, we all know that appearances aren't always everything, but to some PNMs appearances often ARE everything. It's human nature. The spoken word is a scary thing. A newer chapter on campus often will invite back as many as they can, because they are trying to establish themselves. But, as XYZ becomes well-established, perhaps they start to cut heavier each year. Unfortunately, the perception that 'XYZ always invites everyone back' may stick around for years, even if it's not true. Am I making sense? Yes, you are!I think that at my school at that time, the PNMs looked more at how many girls were waiting to go into each sorority before parties. They noticed if a sorority only had 2 parties on a 3 party night, or one pref instead of two. A sorority with 30-40 or more girls going to each pref (with quota in the high teens/low 20s then) got the "boy, everyone wants to be THERE." Another ditto!

[gphiangel624]

I think the way a chapter cuts really depends on the campus, it's size, the percentage of Greeks, etc. My campus is fairly small, but rapidly growing (we currently have @ 14,000 students and about 3-4% are Greek). When I was a Rho Chi last year, I learned all the "behind the scenes" aspects of rush. I learned that one chapter on my campus is exclusive from the start of rush. After first rounds, they cut about 60-75% of the PNMs. And they are one of our larger, well-known houses. They typically make just under quota. Another chapter, who is less "popular" and definitely the smallest house will usually be dropped by the PNMs and they will still invite everyone back (which did bother me when I went through rush bc. I dropped them after first rounds and was still offered to to through second rounds and pref.- Made me feel like "just a number"). They typically don't make quota, but take most of the snap bids and they have a great COB turnout. The other four chapters (including my own) will usually only cut about 10% (based on GPA) and let the PNMs drop whomever they want. Our four chapters regularly make quota or just under.

I'm sure the process is different elsewhere, but I think the way cuts are made at UCR is efficient and works well- five of our six chapters are very close in numbers (usually 4 will hit house total which is 70 by Spring, the other 2 are never far behind), and the smallest chapter usually pulls their numbers up to about 50-55.

[shadokat]

I believe that the amount of women you cut/invite back counts on campuses that have a large number of women going through recruitment and where competition for new women is fairly fierce for the PNMs getting in. At my campus, very few if any women go bidless, but nobody really cuts ANYONE until after the 2nd round. Hell, they really don't cut at prefs either. They would rather know that they are going to have the chance to make quota than not invite enough back and get screwed. It leads on PNMs and makes many unhappy, but when you only have 53 girls going through recruitment and 10 sororities, that's the ugly truth.

[33girl]

Originally posted by shadokat
I believe that the amount of women you cut/invite back counts on campuses that have a large number of women going through recruitment and where competition for new women is fairly fierce for the PNMs getting in. At my campus, very few if any women go bidless, but nobody really cuts ANYONE until after the 2nd round. Hell, they really don't cut at prefs either. They would rather know that they are going to have the chance to make quota than not invite enough back and get screwed. It leads on PNMs and makes many unhappy, but when you only have 53 girls going through recruitment and 10 sororities, that's the ugly truth.

Wordy McWord to shadokat - my school's situation was the same. Although if someone came in with a bad attitude, she was out the door, whether there were enough girls for quota or not.