Selection

[decadence]

This was going to be a possible thread hijack too but then it didn't seem to fit into either of the two selection threads ("Controversy" and "Do you....") running concurrently which really piqued my interest. So I decided to just throw it in a new thread.

A prevailing view seems to be fraternities & sororities can not and generally do not discriminate on issues protected by law (ethnicity, religion etc). At least not openly.
But, that they may select upon factors like academic success, activeness on campus etc and also whether they want to basically hang out with their person (and ultimately be their brother/sister) - so long as they don't decide against it because of race etc.
It seems they can do this (select if they at the end of the day like the person) because the GLOs are SOCIAL organisations and you can't force someone to be friends with someone?

What's the situation with professional GLOs though, are they allowed to select in the same way as social GLOs apart from on gender or are they not allowed to select on whether they want to spend time with a person, not being social and only on academics, whether the pledge attended enough meetings etc?

And the other thing I wondered about was where people commented on how if race discrimination was alleged it was up to the person to prove it. Would the burden of proof really lie with the cut person and not the GLO?? There'd have to be evidence sure but would the fact no black/jewish/otherminority candidates had got in while people who weren't in the applicable minority did be enough? Is that another reason why some administrations are anti-Greek - a fear of discrimination lawsuits?

Just curious.

Decadnce.

[justamom]

decadence-What's the situation with professional GLOs though, are they allowed to select in the same way as social GLOs apart from on gender or are they not allowed to select on whether they want to spend time with a person, not being social and only on academics, whether the pledge attended enough meetings etc?
I wonder about this too.

And the other thing I wondered about was where people commented on how if race discrimination was alleged it was up to the person to prove it. Would the burden of proof really lie with the cut person and not the GLO?? There'd have to be evidence sure but would the fact no black/jewish/otherminority candidates had got in while people who weren't in the applicable minority did be enough? Is that another reason why some administrations are anti-Greek - a fear of discrimination lawsuits?
Boy, are you asking some good questions! I think in a competative rush environment, it would be hard for a rushee to prove it. So many of us know or have heard of
" The FANTASTIC rushee that got cut" by 8 or 9 out of 10 houses. IF a person tried to prove that they were discriminated against, all a GLO would have to do is pull out 70 resume's that look JUST as good as the one making the allegation. I don't think that would be too hard when you have 1000 girls rushing. I'm no expert on any of this stuff, and maybe there are legal aspects I'm not even thinking of, but I just don't think it could fly. Maybe if there were 50 of 1000, or some majic number of rushees who were seemingly cut due to discrimination they could apply some statistic to it and go from there. GOOD QUESTIONS!!!

[kddani]

Professional fraternities are often open membership- open to anyone who meets the requirements (such as a certain GPA, major, etc.). In terms of something like Phi Alpha Delta, all one has to do is fill out the application and turn in a check.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that all of these organizations are private organizations... they can discriminate as they please in most cases. For the same reasons that Boy Scouts can discriminate against homosexual members. If the organization gets funding from a goverment group, there would very well be a stronger cause of action.

If there was a cause of action, the burden of proof would NEVER fall with the GLO- that goes against the entire US justice system. Because race is a "protected class" it may be looked at using a different standard than if it was some other factor.

I'm not going to get into all the procedure involved, i'm sure i'd bore you all. But those are the quick and dirty answers.

[texas*princess]

I've experienced recruitment with two chapters of Delta Sigma Pi, and generally they are looking for about the same things social GLO's are.

They make sure the pnm has at least a certain GPA, they look for leadership, both chapters have also looked to see how out-going the people were, & things like that.

The only thing is that you don't have to 'register' for recruitment, they are generally open recruitment events, and it's nothing like formal rush!

There is no guarantee (sp?) that you will recieve a bid to join Delta Sigma Pi just like there is no guarantee that you will recieve a bid from social GLO's.

I guess it depends on which professional GLO's you're talking about how thourough the process is

Originally posted by texas*princess
generally they are looking for about the same things social GLO's are.

The only thing is that you don't have to 'register' for recruitment, they are generally open recruitment events, and it's nothing like formal rush!

There is no guarantee (sp?) that you will recieve a bid to join Delta Sigma Pi just like there is no guarantee that you will recieve a bid from social GLO's.

Agreed. In my chapter of Delta Omicron, we most certainly looked at the individual girl. We were not "required" to take anyone because of a certain GPA, etc. We do hand out bids. The main difference in our rush is that instead of the rounds that NPC sororities go through, we had a 3 night system... the first night was "informal"... just hanging out and getting to know one another. The second night was "formal"... more formal attire and sharing why we love DO... kind of like Pref, except that anyone was still invited to come. You didn't have to attend both rounds. Afterwards we discussed whether each PNM should get bids, and the next week we would induct the new members as pledges (before that was Taboo!)

Well, that was long. My point was... pretty much the same. It's not a membership free-for-all!

[decadence]

Professional fraternities are often open membership- open to anyone who meets the requirements (such as a certain GPA, major, etc.). In terms of something like Phi Alpha Delta, all one has to do is fill out the application and turn in a check.

True. *But*... In many GLOs at chapter level there is often by nature a certain amount of autonomy regarding selection. Meaning the national will impose certain rules (no selection on basis of race, for example) and perhaps GPA - in some. Then at chapter level they may look for certain other ‘non-personality’ things; activity on campus (being a member of at least one other student group), GPA where the national has no rule etc - again so long as that chapter level selection rule isn’t outlawed by the national constitution. And for all orgs where someone just has to sign up and pay up then sooner or later a cap on numbers might have to be imposed (how will you have a social with 1000 members?? Hire 6 bars to accommodate you all?!). If that’s done on a first come first served basis all well and good but that would not necessarily be best for the chapter. And so selection comes into play.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that all of these organizations are private organizations... they can discriminate as they please in most cases. If the organization gets funding from a goverment group, there would very well be a stronger cause of action.
Hmmm. Yes as private organizations they can discriminate as they please (subject to protected classes such as race, disability, whatever) but they as campus orgs will be present at a college which IS publicly funded (100% private colleges excepted obviously) and perhaps thus vicariously liable. That’s maybe why anti-greek administrations occur - they see GLOs as lawsuits waiting to happen?
Additionally, universities and colleges often have rules against discrimination (by groups, staff or students) which go *over and above* any legal restrictions. Let’s say there're laws against race discrimination but not sexual orientation or religion, disability. The university though can impose those too, and as a member of that college you have to comply with the university's in-house rules. Again, if it is a public authority taking them to courts (judicial review) to ‘fight the system’ is all well and good but the institution’s pockets will be a teensy bit deeper than the average student’s! Obviously if a university denies recognition some nationals will not grant a charter or colony status to that interest group.

If there was a cause of action, the burden of proof would NEVER fall with the GLO- that goes against the entire US justice system. Because race is a "protected class" it may be looked at using a different standard than if it was some other factor.
Are you sure? Okay silly question since you’re in law school but I am curious. The burden of proof in criminal cases in say the US, England or Canada, always lies with the prosecution. Irrelevant for the defendant to prove they DIDN’T do it if the prosecution attorneys can’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that they did. But in a CIVIL case like where discrimination is alleged against a chapter, how on earth could the Mr A prove he wasn’t selected because of some ‘inappropriate’ criteria? Reasons for selection are not usually given to those cut., and he wouldn’t have access to chapter records with comments on rushees - if there were any. Therefore Mr A (one bringing the action against XYZ) wouldn’t be expected to meet the burden of proof how could he? (masculine pronoun used for brevity )

I've experienced recruitment with two chapters of Delta Sigma Pi, and generally they are looking for about the same things social GLO's are. They make sure the pnm has at least a certain GPA, they look for leadership, both chapters have also looked to see how out-going the people were, & things like that. There is no guarantee (sp?) that you will recieve a bid to join Delta Sigma Pi just like there is no guarantee that you will recieve a bid from social GLO's. I guess it depends on which professional GLO's you're talking about how thorough the process is.
Agreed. Again like I say it may be different a chapter level too. The outgoing-ness issue is a grey area too - selecting on how “nice” you find someone isn’t usually, a criteria but naturally interpersonal skills are looked at to see whether the person would be disruptive to the chapter or a good fit. The question is how this is decided… with GPA it’s dead clear - their GPA is either 3.x or it is not. The end! Easy to prove someone with a 2.0 GPA who wasn’t selected was cut for a bona fide reason if the chapter requires a 3.x.
Also, WHEN does the selection take place? Selecting them for pledgeship from a completed form? What if - all other things being equal - the name on the form is distinctly “ethnic”? Or there’s a photo? Once could later argue that played into selection of a cut person. To ensure you don’t miss out on some great PNMs selecting by actually meeting them is better than from an impersonal piece of paper but if there’s a huge amount of applications it’s unrealistic to have a 500 member pledge class! So screening with a form is perhaps needed. Or do you instead only select when meeting someone? Once? Over a long pledge period? And a pledge can be cut at any point up to initiation. (obviously a lot there is not relevant to NPC formal rushing social sororities for example)

If there was a complaint to the college (and then of course an investigation) proving there was *not* discrimination - to the college - might be difficult. If the chapter has asked all members at application form time to fill in a ethnic origin form which is kept separate and by a separate person until final selection has taken place that would help for instamce. It’s a lot for a little organization with typically limited resources to do though.

Sorry to take all the fun out of selection but it's an interesting topic.

[Not a Mezzo]

I'm a member of a professional music fraternity in addition to Phi Mu. I know that it can be different at different schools, but all three music GLO's at my school (Mu Phi Epsilon, Phi Mu Alpha, and Sigma Alpha Iota) are required to issue bids to all who attend the open rush nights, as long as they have a high enough GPA and have at least one semester of college under their belts (to establish said GPA).

I know this is different at other chapters, though. One regular poster (I wish I could remember her name, but I can't) pointed out that her chapter is allowed to select those to whom they offer bids, just as social GLO's are. I guess it just depends on the chapter and/or existing rules at the school.

Then, too...I think, since SAI is all-female, they're not completely under the "professional" designation, which may allow chapters to make their own decisions regarding bids. (The same goes for Phi Mu Alpha, which is all-male). Mu Phi Epsilon is co-ed nationally, if not necessarily in every chapter, so I don't think they have as much control over selection.

I don't have experience with other music GLO's, so I couldn't say what applies for them. Nor am I in any other professional GLO's. But that's what seems to work for those three here.

Originally posted by Not a Mezzo
I know this is different at other chapters, though. One regular poster (I wish I could remember her name, but I can't) pointed out that her chapter is allowed to select those to whom they offer bids, just as social GLO's are.

That's me! (I'm guessing)

I guess it just depends on the chapter and/or existing rules at the school.

Agreed. I'm sure there are some chapters of DO who do give bids to everyone who rushes. As far as I know (I won't swear by this, but I'm almost positive) the Phi Mu Alpha chapter on my old campus doesn't bid everyone who rushes, either. If they do, they must have some fantastic way of only getting the right guys to rush, because they have an amazing group of guys (or did in my day, at least)

I think, since SAI is all-female, they're not completely under the "professional" designation, which may allow chapters to make their own decisions regarding bids. (The same goes for Phi Mu Alpha, which is all-male). Mu Phi Epsilon is co-ed nationally, if not necessarily in every chapter, so I don't think they have as much control over selection.

I'm not sure how it works with SAI, but since Phi Mu Alpha is actually a social fraternity rather than professional, yes, they are extended much more flexibility with their bidding. We are, by designation, co-ed, however, my chapter is by choice all female (or was... it may have changed). There are ways of getting around it. I'm not familiar wiht Mu Phi Epsilon, so I can't say anything for them.