Biden / Palin VP Debate, Oct 2nd @ 9PM EST

[nittanyalum]

Palin outdid Biden on foreign policy???!????!??!!!!???

You and I were watching two different debates, my friend.

[CrackerBarrel]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Palin outdid Biden on foreign policy???!????!??!!!!???

You and I were watching two different debates, my friend.

Yes, not in terms of policy, in terms of debating. He let her flat out call him wrong on a number of things without responding.

I.E. the "waving a white flag in Iraq" line and her response about what a troop surge in Afghanistan would entail and how wonderful it would be.

Most people don't tune into a debate to judge how wonderful the ideas are, they aren't knowledgeable enough to make that decision. And when you let your opponent flat out call you wrong or do something as bold as calling your Iraq policy surrender without responding to it, it comes across as you conceding the point. Biden certainly "out-facted" her through the entire debate, but he needed to give a short response and then make his own criticism instead of just shaking his head and letting them move on to the next question. The strict partisans already have an opinion on who "is right" and that's the person they will think won an issue. But to people who don't already have a strong opinion, when your opponent gives a strong criticism and you can't or don't respond to it at all, you just lost that point.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by CrackerBarrel

Yes, not in terms of policy, in terms of debating. He let her flat out call him wrong on a number of things without responding.

I.E. the "waving a white flag in Iraq" line and her response about what a troop surge in Afghanistan would entail and how wonderful it would be.

Most people don't tune into a debate to judge how wonderful the ideas are, they aren't knowledgeable enough to make that decision. And when you let your opponent flat out call you wrong or do something as bold as calling your Iraq policy surrender without responding to it, it comes across as you conceding the point. Biden certainly "out-facted" her through the entire debate, but he needed to give a short response and then make his own criticism instead of just shaking his head and letting them move on to the next question. The strict partisans already have an opinion on who "is right" and that's the person they will think won an issue. But to people who don't already have a strong opinion, when your opponent gives a strong criticism and you can't or don't respond to it at all, you just lost that point.

Well, we'll have to chalk it up to the prism you're watching it through then, because my impression of that "raising the white flag" bit was that it was so panned and rehearsed, she was obviously waiting to shuffle her cards and pull that one out. So I thought it fell completely flat. Biden showed not only knowledge but passion about foreign affairs issues. She clearly repeated what she'd been taught and stuck with McCain's platform.

I haven't read or heard anyone else saying she won points over Biden on foreign policy, but if you can supply some links (that aren't from Anne Coulter or someone of that ilk), I'd love to read or watch them.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Well, we'll have to chalk it up to the prism you're watching it through then, because my impression of that "raising the white flag" bit was that it was so panned and rehearsed, she was obviously waiting to shuffle her cards and pull that one out. So I thought it fell completely flat. Biden showed not only knowledge but passion about foreign affairs issues. She clearly repeated what she'd been taught and stuck with McCain's platform.

I haven't read or heard anyone else saying she won points over Biden on foreign policy, but if you can supply some links (that aren't from Anne Coulter or someone of that ilk), I'd love to read or watch them.

and the rehersal was clear in how she paused before said it like she had to remember to say it...

[summer_gphib]

This debate should be used to teach school children about fallacies. Her rhetoric was almost a perfect example of red herring.

And then it should be used to teach about manners and research. "Hey can I call ya Joe" ain't the best manners.

And on the research front... the general in Afghanistan is McKiernan, not McClellan. Know your material and know it well, so you don't end up looking like a bozo.

On another note... I really felt for Biden when he was talking about being a single dad.

ETA: At least she brings some really funny material to SNL. I'm convinced that's the reason Bush was elected a second term.

[srmom]

I switched among all the news channels post debate and they all (including democrats) said that she did a pretty good job and that her likeability factor was higher than Biden's.

As an aside, I don't get all the vitriol towards her, it's almost like a psychosis. She isn't a boogie (wo)man who's hiding in the closet I don't feel hatred or fear about any of them. The people who truly wield the power are the legislators, and more frequently these days, the judiciary. The president, and certainly, the vice president can only wield any influence if they have a clear mandate from the people seen in a landslide vote. As much as people say Bush pushed us into war, the Congress voted to allow it and has allowed the budgetary appropriations to continue it. (mind you, I'm no Bush fan, I just find revisionist history interesting to watch unfold). Just like the people who are saying that it is the deregulation of the past 8 years that have brought us to this economic crisis, when it is very easy to find that factually the deregulation of Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac began in 1999 (and the pressure for it began before that). All you need is google or nexis and the facts are right there in print.

It reminds me of the book 1984 - newspeak.

As for fact checking the vp debate - both fudged on the facts, both had flubs in terms of mis-speaking, but, we all view the performances based upon our predisposed biases.

off the soapbox.

[kchaptergphib]

Originally Posted by srmom

The president, and certainly, the vice president can only wield any influence if they have a clear mandate from the people seen in a landslide vote.

Oh, how I wish that were true. I think Cheney especially has shown that it does NOT take a mandate to wield a great deal of influence.
I do agree that congress goes along with entirely too much, but they're too worried about getting screwed over if they vote against something- they're "soft on terrorism" they "don't support our troops" and all that nonsense. Yuck. Strap on a pair!

[agzg]

I don't know - maybe it was just me, but when Obama picked Biden my response was "WTF? That guy doesn't even like him!" Which, in turn, caused me to not like Biden and to scratch my head at Obama.

Which Sarah touched on last night. However, I'd have to say that his likeability definitely rose (in my mind) last night. I haven't really been exposed to him that much.

I mean, not to take it down to the Bush v. Kerry level, but I'll go there. I'd almost rather have a beer with Joe Biden. At least he's not going to say stuff like "OMG I'm a Hockey Mom!"

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

I don't know - maybe it was just me, but when Obama picked Biden my response was "WTF? That guy doesn't even like him!" Which, in turn, caused me to not like Biden and to scratch my head at Obama.

Well, Kennedy and Johnson didn't like each other either. Nothing new there.

For the flip side, my mother-in-law, a yellow dog Democrat if ever there was one and a Hillary supporter, was having a hard time warming up to Obama, mostly because of his relative lack of experience. Him picking Biden pulled her on board quickly, because she does like Biden.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Well, Kennedy and Johnson didn't like each other either. Nothing new there.

Good point.

I think I got Biden's and McCain's personalities mixed up when I didn't like him, FWIW. Nice to see Biden actually has a soul.

[WarEagle07]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

I'd almost rather have a beer with Joe Biden. At least he's not going to say stuff like "OMG I'm a Hockey Mom!"

Hmmm.....
After this debate I think that I would rather have a beer with Gov. Palin. To me, Sen. Biden comes across as a person who is book smart but not necessarily someone I could relate to on any beer chugging level. Gov. Palin on the other hand seems like she would be someone who I could have a beer with and talk kids, life, and she would be fun. Now, being a lightweight, it would only take me half a beer before I started giving her unsolicited advice like 1. stop dropping your g's when you speak!! 2. stop winking, it's creepy. 3. enunciate!! enunciate!! enunciate!!! 4. It is not diplomatic to drop formalities like titles. 5. come up with some new material!! At this point she would probably have her secret service detail take me away, in which case my evening would be ruined. So I should probably share my beer with Biden instead........

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by WarEagle07

Hmmm.....
After this debate I think that I would rather have a beer with Gov. Palin. To me, Sen. Biden comes across as a person who is book smart but not necessarily someone I could relate to on any beer chugging level. Gov. Palin on the other hand seems like she would be someone who I could have a beer with and talk kids, life, and she would be fun.

Ehhhhhhh...no.

[Benzgirl]

[AGDee]

I'd rather have a beer with Palin. I'd rather not vote for the person I'd like to have a beer with. I want to vote for someone who can present themselves as poised and sophisticated under all circumstances.

[CrackerBarrel]

Her calling Biden "Joe" was the exact same thing as Obama calling McCain "John" last week while McCain said "Senator Obama" or "the senator" the whole time. In fact it wouldn't entirely surprise me if that had something to do with why they had Palin call him "Joe".

And was I the only one who thought it was awkward when Biden would say "That's the difference between Sarah Palin and Joe Biden and Barack Obama and John McCain."? He needed to find a connector other than "and" to replace some of those ands. It made it sound like he was saying that none of them agrees with anyone else in the race.