Israel at War?

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

-Rudey
--Oh and F-ck the UN for standing by while Israelis were murdered by Hezbollah in front of them, F-ck the UN for not releasing a video tape of the attack and their looking the other way, and F-ck the UN for pretending it's neutral.

Oohhh... so you want to play the blame game then huh...

Well F-ck Israel for prohibiting the UN from entering it's territory; F-ck Israel for not permitting the UN to bring it's wounded or wounded civilians into Israel; F-ck Israel for not allowing UN troops to intervene in any incident involving the IDF; F-ck Israel for destroying UN equipment and medicines that might be used to treat and move the wounded; and finally F-ck Israel for always thinking they are on the side of right...

[shinerbock]

No, congratulations to Israel on their wise decisions to not let the anti Israeli association known as the UN to interfere with their actions. The Israeli government is absolutely right in not allowing the UN to keep Israel from protecting its citizens. This situation shows the bias and worthlessness of the United Nations. If I were PM, I'd tell the UN that we'll allow the U.S. to send in aid, but the UN should get out. They don't need a psuedo-peace keeping organization interrupting their mission.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Oohhh... so you want to play the blame game then huh...

Well F-ck Israel for prohibiting the UN from entering it's territory; F-ck Israel for not permitting the UN to bring it's wounded or wounded civilians into Israel; F-ck Israel for not allowing UN troops to intervene in any incident involving the IDF; F-ck Israel for destroying UN equipment and medicines that might be used to treat and move the wounded; and finally F-ck Israel for always thinking they are on the side of right...

Rob it's great that you ignore the points made. It's a sign of the fact that you can't address them.

Again, the UN is not saying it was deliberate and is happy there will be an investigation. But I am sure based on your expert opinion, it's otherwise.

And your F-ck points don't even make sense and are irrelevant. Israel has allowed a humanitarian corridor into Lebanon for medicines and supplies and allowed for international access to Lebanon to move foreign citizens out.

But again, it's great that the UN saw Israelis being murdered, looked the other way, and chose to not share a videotape of the incident. It's great that you addressed that Rob. And it's great that when nobody ever said Israel is always right, you come in to condemn Israel and its supporters for just that - clearly an indication that you are level headed and have no biases.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

Rob it's great that you ignore the points made. It's a sign of the fact that you can't address them.

Again, the UN is not saying it was deliberate and is happy there will be an investigation. But I am sure based on your expert opinion, it's otherwise.

Well I'd have to say evidence is kinda mounting that it was either deliberate or an act of gross military incompetence...

UN peacekeepers called Israel 10 times to ask for bombing halt before post hit

JERUSALEM (AP) - UN peacekeepers in southern Lebanon called the Israeli military 10 times in a six-hour period to ask it to halt its nearby bombing before their observation post was hit, killing a Canadian and three other observers, according to details of a preliminary UN report on the incident released to The Associated Press on Wednesday.

During each phone call, an Israeli official promised to halt the bombing, according to a UN official who had seen the preliminary report.

The UN peacekeepers at the post said the area within a kilometre of the post was hit with precision munitions, including 17 bombs and 12 artillery shells, four of which directly hit the post Tuesday, the report said.



... (and this tidbit)
Annan said the "co-ordinated artillery and aerial attack on a long established and clearly marked UN post at Khiam occurred despite personal assurances given to me by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert that UN positions would be spared Israeli fire."
rest of article at:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/26072006/...bing-halt.html

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

But again, it's great that the UN saw Israelis being murdered, looked the other way, and chose to not share a videotape of the incident. It's great that you addressed that Rob. And it's great that when nobody ever said Israel is always right, you come in to condemn Israel and its supporters for just that - clearly an indication that you are level headed and have no biases.

-Rudey

Well lets just say I'm biased in the way that I will trust the opinion and word of those I served with, more than the word of a decidely anti-UN media and IDF...

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Well lets just say I'm biased in the way that I will trust the opinion and word of those I served with, more than the word of a decidely anti-UN media and IDF...

Weirdly biased anecdotal evidence?

This is the best thread in history!

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Well I'd have to say evidence is kinda mounting that it was either deliberate or an act of gross military incompetence...

UN peacekeepers called Israel 10 times to ask for bombing halt before post hit

When the United Nations force in Lebanon, known as UNIFIL, reported losing contact with the outpost, it secured safe passage from Israel to send in Indian troops, who found the shelter collapsed and the remains of three of the four peacekeepers.

Ms. Lute said that Secretary General Kofi Annan, who in a statement Tuesday night issued in Rome had called the attacks “apparently deliberate,” now accepted the Israeli government’s assurance that they were not [deliberate]. She said the United Nations welcomed Israel’s promise to conduct an immediate investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/wo...d-nations.html

Again you seem to not address the points while launching into a diatribe. The UN has accepted it's not deliberate and welcomes an investigation. At some point you need to stop making these judgement calls and realize that evidence will be presented by those that are qualified to do so.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

Well lets just say I'm biased in the way that I will trust the opinion and word of those I served with, more than the word of a decidely anti-UN media and IDF...

Let me repeat myself for dexterity. Nobody said that Israel was perfect and everything it does is correct and right. Israel is a country made of human beings, none of which is a proven deity that specializes in perfection.

You however, make it a point to come on here and condemn Israel and its supporters for something it hasn't claimed to be. Why? Do you dislike the country that much?

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

When the United Nations force in Lebanon, known as UNIFIL, reported losing contact with the outpost, it secured safe passage from Israel to send in Indian troops, who found the shelter collapsed and the remains of three of the four peacekeepers.

Ms. Lute said that Secretary General Kofi Annan, who in a statement Tuesday night issued in Rome had called the attacks “apparently deliberate,” now accepted the Israeli government’s assurance that they were not [deliberate]. She said the United Nations welcomed Israel’s promise to conduct an immediate investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/wo...d-nations.html

Again you seem to not address the points while launching into a diatribe. The UN has accepted it's not deliberate and welcomes an investigation. At some point you need to stop making these judgement calls and realize that evidence will be presented by those that are qualified to do so.

-Rudey

I'm just worried that once again political pressure will ruin any chance of the actual facts coming out... however I do know that the Irish protested the targeting and/or continued bombardment of their posts, and that Mj. Hess-von Kruedener did the same 10 times but was ignored... and at the end of the day a good officer of the PPCLI is dead becuase either: a) the IDF deliberately targeted his post (a former IDF post that the UN occupied in 1972) after bombarding the surrounding area for days before the fatal bombardment, or b) the IDF somehow misguided a GPS guided munition onto a highly visible, clearly marked position that was in communication with them at the time... either is a criminal act.

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by RACooper

I'm just worried that once again political pressure will ruin any chance of the actual facts coming out... however I do know that the Irish protested the targeting and/or continued bombardment of their posts, and that Mj. Hess-von Kruedener did the same 10 times but was ignored... and at the end of the day a good officer of the PPCLI is dead becuase either: a) the IDF deliberately targeted his post (a former IDF post that the UN occupied in 1972) after bombarding the surrounding area for days before the fatal bombardment, or b) the IDF somehow misguided a GPS guided munition onto a highly visible, clearly marked position that was in communication with them at the time... either is a criminal act.

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

[RACooper]

Originally Posted by Rudey

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

When it comes to the actual targetting and bombardment of the position in the days before the fatal attack... I'd say I know just as much as the UN about it, at least from reading Mj. Hess-von Kruedener emails... and pretty soon a whole lot of other people will as well since Cynthia (his wife) will be making them available to the Canadian Press...

From what he wrote he understood the tactical necessity of artillery and air bombardment of the areas around any future IDF line of advance... some of which came very close to his post in the preceeding days... in fact he jokingly wrote that the only tactical spot not hit was the one he occupied...

I'm pissed off and disgusted that someone who dedicated decades serving both in the PPCLI and as a peacekeeper in Cyprus, Bosnia (twice... once as my company commander), and Zaire would have been killed in this way - unarmed and defenceless because of Israel conditions, and then finally killed by the Israelis

[_Opi_]

Different Journalists discussing Propaganda in the American Media

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...23714384920696

[Rudey]

Originally Posted by _Opi_

Different Journalists discussing Propaganda in the American Media

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...23714384920696

You post this propaganda and then ask why I get upset.

Fine. I'll do the same to you, except my material will be less about propaganda and more about the truth.

http://www.honestreporting.com/artic...Under_Fire.asp

A look at some of the myths and facts following Hezbollah's attack on Israel.


function titleFontChange(inc){ var fSize = document.getElementById('titleSpan').style.fontSiz e fSize = fSize.substring(0,2) if(Number(fSize)32) fSize = 32; document.getElementById('titleSpan').style.fontSiz e = (Number(fSize) + inc) +"px"; } Israeli military operations in Lebanon are taking place in response to an unprovoked border attack which left 8 Israeli soldiers dead and two kidnapped by the Hezbollah. Since then many more Israelis have been wounded and killed by over 700 Katyusha missiles and mortars that have rained down on Israel's northern cities, including as far south as Haifa and Tiberias. Israel is exercising her legitimate right to self-defense. Please stand up for Israel at this extremely difficult time and support our efforts to promote balance in the media, particularly as the volume of media coverage expands so dramatically.
MYTHS AND FACTS SURROUNDING THE CRISIS
Myth - "Israel's response is disproportionate."
Fact - The definition of a "disproportionate" response is a subjective one. The question that could be asked of any other country in the world is simply: "What would you do in the same situation?" When protecting its citizens, exercising the right to self-defense and responding to missile attacks over a recognized border, most countries would respond in a similar manner. After all, how many Israelis need to die before the world believes that Israeli responses are proportionate?
Any civilian casualties in a conflict are, of course, tragic and regrettable. Civilians on both sides are suffering. However, Israeli air strikes on Lebanon are not intended to kill civilians, unlike the hundreds of Hezbollah missiles that are targeted specifically at Israeli civilians who have been forced into bomb shelters for their own safety. Israel has even dropped leaflets on Beirut suburbs calling on civilians to stay away from Hezbollah strongholds to avoid being caught up in the fighting.
Israel has also been criticized for targeting Lebanese infrastructure such as the Beirut airport. However, it is also interesting to note what has not been targeted. For example, while the airport runway was bombed, other vital installations such as the control tower were left untouched and Lebanese civilian airliners were allowed to fly to safety. Transport hubs and bridges have been targeted in order to prevent Hezbollah moving the kidnapped Israeli soldiers deeper into Lebanon and possibly even as far as Iran, as well as to prevent the terrorist organization being re-supplied with arms from Iran and elsewhere.
Many of Hezbollah's facilities and missile launch sites are located near residential areas, such as the suburbs of southern Beirut. Terrorists hide within the civilian population and use this population as a shield. Israel's priority is to strike at the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure that has been allowed to develop in Lebanon.
Israel has, so far, avoided initiating a major ground offensive into Lebanese territory and has barely used a fraction of the firepower available to the IDF.
Myth - "Lebanon bears no responsibility for the actions of Hezbollah."
Fact - UN Security Council Resolution 1559 of September 2004, which referred back to Resolution 425, called "upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon"; "for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias"; and supported "the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory".
Syria eventually complied with 1559 and removed its occupying forces. However, the Lebanese government has not disarmed Hezbollah nor has it sent its armed forces to secure southern Lebanon and the border with Israel.
In addition, Hezbollah is actually part of the Lebanese government, which contains two Hezbollah members in the Cabinet. The Lebanese government, therefore, cannot abstain from responsibility for the actions of a part of its own leadership.
Myth - "Hezbollah is an indigenous Lebanese 'resistance' organization."
Fact - According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the Hezbollah:

is a Lebanese umbrella organization of radical Islamic Shiite groups and organizations. It opposes the West, seeks to create a Muslim fundamentalist state modeled on Iran, and is a bitter foe of Israel. Hezbollah, whose name means "party of God," is a terrorist group believed responsible for nearly 200 attacks since 1982 that have killed more than 800 people.

Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

• a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s;
• the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;
• the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane?s pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;
• and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina - the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five).

In addition, Hezbollah is sponsored, funded and armed by Iran and Syria who use the organization as a proxy to fight Israel and to destabilize the region. Hezbollah is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US State Department.
For more information on Hezbollah, see the following sources:
Anti-Defamation League
Institute for Counter-Terrorism
Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center
Terrorism Knowledge Base
Myth - "Outside actors such as Iran are not fuelling the crisis."

Fact - A number of analysts have suggested that the timing of the Hezbollah operation is no coincidence, occurring just prior to the G8 Summit in St. Petersburg. The G8 was expected to concentrate heavily on Iran's refusal to comply with demands to curtail its nuclear program. A wider Mideast crisis, provoked by Iran's Hezbollah proxies, has now moved to the top of the G8 agenda, thus relieving some of the pressure on Iran.
In addition, Iranian fingerprints are to be found in the current conflict. The Katyusha missiles that are currently raining down on the north of Israel are supplied by Iran. An Israeli Naval vessel was also struck by an Iranian-made C802 missile, killing four sailors.
Myth - "Israel continues to occupy Lebanese land, specifically the Shebaa Farms area."
Fact - On May 24, 2000, Israel completed the unilateral withdrawal of all IDF forces from southern Lebanon, in accordance with Israeli government decisions and UN Security Council Resolution 425, ending an 18-year presence there.

On June 18, 2000, the UN Security Council endorsed the Secretary-General's conclusion that, as of 16 June, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with Resolution 425.
As explained by Israel's Foreign Ministry, the Shebaa Farms area is not, and should not be, considered disputed territory - its status was clarified by a number of United Nations statements following the withdrawal of Israel forces from Lebanon in May 2000.

The United Nations views the Shebaa Farms area as Syrian territory. Therefore, UN Security Council Resolution 425 - which concerns Lebanon - does not require Israel to withdraw from this area.
While Lebanon claims to be the owner of the Shebaa Farms area, the UN has encouraged the Lebanese and Syrians to negotiate between themselves as to who is the rightful owner. If Syria were to cede ownership of the area to Lebanon, then it is probable that Israel and the UN would then reconsider the status of the territory. In the meantime, the issue of the Shebaa Farms is used simply as an excuse for the Hezbollah to maintain itself as an armed force in the region.
Myth - "Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails were kidnapped from Lebanese soil and should be released."
Some Lebanese and other Arab spokespeople have defended Hezbollah's actions as a legitimate form of "resistance" aimed at securing the release of Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails from the period of Israel's presence in its southern Lebanon security zone.
Fact - The prisoner whom Hezbollah is demanding, above all others, be released, is Samir Kuntar, jailed in Israel since a 1979 attack in the northern Israeli town of Nahariyah, in which he entered an apartment and murdered three family members and an Israeli police officer.
Kuntar is quite simply a terrorist and a murderer who committed a terrible atrocity on Israeli soil. Those prisoners held in Israeli jails captured during Israel's stay in southern Lebanon are, likewise, held for terrorist offences and due to the inherent risk that they will return to their previous activities.


-Rudey

[Rudey]

Sites to help people understand Arab lies and media bias against Israel:
http://www.honestreporting.com/
http://www.camera.org
http://www.imra.org.il
http://www.middleeastfacts.com
http://www.palestinefacts.org/
http://www.memri.org/

I can also start posting videos and pictures like you opi.

-Rudey

[_Opi_]

You may post whatever you like, Rudey. It's a free country.