So What Happens Now?

[Wolfman]

As it regards this case, a Fraternity brother who is a jurist in the area, says that from what he's heard, there will be three Duke lacrosse players in orange jump suits soon. It's full steam ahead on this case by the DA.

[macallan25]

Aren't jurors forbidden to discuss anything that pertains to the case. There hasn't even been a trial yet, how would he know that three of them are going to jail. That sounds ridiculous

[Wolfman]

Originally posted by macallan25
Aren't jurors forbidden to discuss anything that pertains to the case. There hasn't even been a trial yet, how would he know that three of them are going to jail. That sounds ridiculous

No, you misunderstood. A jurist is a judge not a juror on a case or a grand jury. And not that they'll be convicted--of course not!--but that they'll be charged. That's all!

[Rudey]

Why are jumpsuits orange?

When did they do away with stripes? You know...like the Hamburgler wore. Did they ever even really have stripes?



-Rudey

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by Wolfman
As it regards this case, a Fraternity brother who is a jurist in the area, says that from what he's heard, there will be three Duke lacrosse players in orange jump suits soon. It's full steam ahead on this case by the DA.

You're bad for business, Wolfman.

[shinerbock]

DSTS, I disagree. Very few (none that I've seen) black commentators are saying anything like "these guys are innocent until proven guilty," or mentioning the fact that there is no solid evidence against them. In reality, the people going on TV and yelling about racism or how white people just wanna destroy their culture. In doing so, they are hurting the credibility of other black leaders. You can say, "oh thats just your racist viewpoint," but if you awake to reality, thats how the average American will see it. I mean, I know your mind is so open your brain has fallen out, but try and escape from your Berkley mentality long enough to understand how Americans will react. Negatively. As to your comment about people like me being the reason this is a racial issue, you're once again mistaken (I'm noticing a trend). I am only responding to what I've seen from the black community. They made this about race. Before they pulled the race card, the focus was on the possibility of a rape, not on the racial undercurrents that exist in this country.

[macallan25]

You hit the nail on the head. I agree totally. The only thing that I have seen from the black community on TV is that they are all outraged that these kids aren't arrested and sitting in a jail cell....regardless if there is a case against them or not.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by shinerbock
DSTChaos, I disagree. Very few (none that I've seen) black commentators are saying anything like "these guys are innocent until proven guilty," or mentioning the fact that there is no solid evidence against them.

I fixed my name for you. Thank me later.

The fact that there are SOME black commentators stating "innocent until proven guilty" dismisses your point. Does there need to be a quota system of opinions or something? Moreover, I have seen my fair share of nonblacks assuming guilt in this case, so that's that.

I don't know what you're talking about with "Berkeley mentality" but the accusser and another witness said racial slurs were thrown at them. If that means they played the "race card" (which is one of the DUMBEST terms ever...race isn't a damn card), then...okay. If they are telling the truth, based on your logic, I guess they should've left out that tidbit of information as to not confuse the easily perplexed American public. Last but not least, there was consideration to legally pursue this as a hate crime, as well as a rape case. I guess that means the legal system and the feds have played the "race card."

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by macallan25
You hit the nail on the head. I agree totally. The only thing that I have seen from the black community on TV is that they are all outraged that these kids aren't arrested and sitting in a jail cell....regardless if there is a case against them or not.

Well, either you all are going to accept the FACT that the black community isn't a monolithic group or not. Don't confuse what you see on TV with what the "black community feels on an issue."

I certainly don't know what the white community feels on this issue. Because...I'm wise enough to know that there is no ONE white community stance. From the uber feminists who immediately wanted to burn these lacrosse layers at the stake to the uber Conservatives who think a BLACK exotic dancer from an HBCU has no credibility against some white males from a prestigous PWI. Diversity of opinions.

[shinerbock]

Chaos, I actually agree with much of that. The idea of "hate crimes" is so ridiculous it sickens me, and I'm amazed that our legal system has allowed such an obscene law to continue. As to the racial slurs, that may or may not be true, but that doesnt mean we should turn this into a white v. black debate. The fact is, a crime may have happened, and it should be viewed as that, just a crime (which would go back to my idea about hate crimes). Also, as to your point about "some" commentators not assuming guilt, I havent seen any from the black community. The only reason I didnt say all is because I don't assume that I've seen every person speak on the subject. You're also right however, that there are white commentators doing the same. However, there is an equal number of white commentators giving them the benefit of the doubt, while as earlier mentioned, I've yet to see a black commentator do. I also don't think people will judge white commentators as they will black ones, which is not right, but I do believe occurs. In a world with such overwhelming stereotypes, unfortunately black leaders are on trial whenever they enter the public arena.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by shinerbock
Chaos, I actually agree with much of that. The idea of "hate crimes" is so ridiculous it sickens me, and I'm amazed that our legal system has allowed such an obscene law to continue. As to the racial slurs, that may or may not be true, but that doesnt mean we should turn this into a white v. black debate. The fact is, a crime may have happened, and it should be viewed as that, just a crime (which would go back to my idea about hate crimes).

Hate crime laws are only obscene if the crime isn't motivated by group-specific hate. Some women's rights and rape victims rights activists were/are angered by the fact that this was being approached as a hate crime. Their main argument is that rape is about power regardless of race, sexual orientation, or social class. This would essentially make all rape cases "hate crimes" since women are most often the targets. That's a whole new topic that I won't be discussing any further.

Sorry to break it to you, but the perception of racial impropriety will make a racialized country such as this view such issues with a racial lens. Some people will verbalize it, some people will just THINK it but verbally deny the existence of it, and the remainder will be perfect human beings who don't use socio-demographics to categorize anything. The last category constitutes about <1% of humanity and even this is often based on group position.

Moving on.

[macallan25]

Yes, I do realize that that may not be the stance from every black/white person, thats why I said TV. Other than that, I mostly agree with what you responded to me with.

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
Hate crime laws are only obscene if the crime isn't motivated by group-specific hate. Some women's rights and rape victims rights activists were/are angered by the fact that this was being approached as a hate crime. Their main argument is that rape is about power regardless of race, sexual orientation, or social class. This would essentially make all rape cases "hate crimes" since women are most often the targets. That's a whole new topic that I won't be discussing any further.

Sorry to break it to you, but the perception of racial impropriety will make a racialized country such as this view such issues with a racial lens. Some people will verbalize it, some people will just THINK it but verbally deny the existence of it, and the remainder will be perfect human beings who don't use socio-demographics to categorize anything. The last category constitutes about <1% of humanity and even this is often based on group position.

Moving on.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by macallan25
Yes, I do realize that that may not be the stance from every black/white person, thats why I said TV.

My larger question is: What's the significance of the observations that you and shinerbock are making?

[shinerbock]

I agree with your stance on how race is viewed. Maybe we should start a thread on the legality and reasoning behind hate crime legislation.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by shinerbock
Chaos, I actually agree with much of that. The idea of "hate crimes" is so ridiculous it sickens me, and I'm amazed that our legal system has allowed such an obscene law to continue. As to the racial slurs, that may or may not be true, but that doesnt mean we should turn this into a white v. black debate. The fact is, a crime may have happened, and it should be viewed as that, just a crime (which would go back to my idea about hate crimes).

The thing is, even if we ignore the concept of "hate crimes" for a minute, and even if we disregard the allegations of racial slurs, race still is an issue here. In the criminal justice system, race often is an issue one way or another -- it affects everything from police stops to charges to hearings and trials to plea agreements and verdicts to sentencing (at least in my experience). So much of what happens in the criminal arena IS some form of white v. black debate.