any "nice" conservatives out there?

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
I guess they'd find someone else they don't agree with to pick on because of a simple mistake.

It does not matter what I feel because she is factually incorrect.

Her research methodology is bad. She's using reductionism by using one and two very bad example, ignoring many facts within those countries, and over generalized her idea what the world looks like.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
Even if she did use citations, she would probably still be ripped apart by those who don't agree, so what's the point? They would immediately be dismissed as false or random or whatever else.

I know you're upset about the time you thought you were quoting Voltaire and weren't, but it's really time to move on from that.

It really is okay to disagree with your sisters when they are wrong.

[33girl]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
We are. We have special Catholic meetings where we plan to get those guys. That's why all the people who see the Virgin Mary in their grilled cheese live down south. We're trying to corrupt them. We're going to get the northern ones with too much beer.

Should we create a special thread where we show how to argue over an issue?

Grilled cheese and beer would be a fine lunch. But I can't have it. Thanks for making me sad GP .

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by 33girl
Grilled cheese and beer would be a fine lunch. But I can't have it. Thanks for making me sad GP .

You can have it for dinner.

[non-greek newby]

Originally posted by WCUAXID
HAHA, I just knew that someone was going to bring up the whole "your ancestors were immigrants" thing. One of the things that makes the situation different today as to back when my great great grandparents came over from Poland was that my family, even way back then, made it a point to learn english. My great great grandfather was a very smart man and knew that in order to make it in a new country that he and his family would have to embrace the American way of life and not expect Americans to learn Polish. I don't understand why I, as an American, am expected to be tolerant of the non-speaking residents. Why are there billboards in Spanish, why do ATM machines give you a choice of language. Why do I have to have some of my pay go to the education system only to fund a teacher to teach Spanish to American children?? Why does that teacher not teach English to the children who can not speak English?? We are not helping the illegal immigrants by catering to them, we are only making the situation worse. I don't care if we have millions of immigrants that come in on a daily basis, as long as they can speak English or are willing to go to classes to learn and that they are here legally!!
Oh I know that they take crap jobs that Americans just don't want to do, but that is not neccisarily the case any more. Alot of construction jobs are now going to illegals because they do it cheaper and they do not have any health benefits. I know that it is also the fault of the companies or individuals that hire out this type of help. It still does not help the situation.
Also I have had several friends and family members that have been involved in several auto accidents which were not their fault, unfortunatly they were hit by an uninsured Mexican mototist that was here illegally. Now get this, their insurance went up through no fault of their own, is that fair??
I guess what I am trying to say through all of these rambelings is that I am absolutely for immigrants coming over to America, as long as it is legal and they can speak English or are willing to learn. I believe that everyone should have a great life and be able to do all the great things that Americans get to do. And one of the ways to ensure that they have a quality life in America is to make sure that they are here legally. This way they can not be taken advantage of on their wages, they can pay into the system and get something back, and they can instill theses values into their children.
I can respect your point of view please respect mine

I totally respect that you have this viewpoint, but I am going to have to disagree with it. This is simply because the type of immigration reform you are advocating for is assimilation -- something I whole-heartedly disagree with. The reason for this is because (1) I believe the variety of people and their cultures in this country is what makes it so beautiful; (2) You believe in an assimilation of language, but think how your reasoning could just as well justify an assimilation of something as small as clothing or hairstyle and as big as religion or culture.

I'd also like to say, and this is not just for you, but for all GC-ers, that I have come to the realization that when we complain about certain aspects of our society, maybe we should attach our own solutions or alternatives to these problems based on researched observations. Therefore, I am going to give you my solution to this "illegal" immigrant problem:

1. Just as we do with "drug wars," infiltrate avenues of illegal immigration to stifle its future occurrence in the USA.
2. Give legal status to all undocumented immigrants under the age of 21.
3. These people must partake in some community or civil service.
4. Formulate an education system where immigrant children can learn English in an environment where their culture is not ostracized.
And finally,
5. Make more stringent rules for companies who employ illegal immigrants. (most companies just get a slap on the wrist)

I know that many of these are easy to say, but very hard to carry out. However, I think our government should be taking on more long-term daunting tasks these days, especially when it comes to reforming the education system. (but don't get me started with that one)
Please feel free to disagree with any of my claims or give your own solution.

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
I know you're upset about the time you thought you were quoting Voltaire and weren't, but it's really time to move on from that.

It really is okay to disagree with your sisters when they are wrong.

Oh wow, you hurt my feelings. Really you did. I know that no one on GC is ever mistaken about anything they quote.

[moe.ron]

However, if you are asking me how I know we have freedom of religion, because we are a Christian Nation . . . my knowledge comes from the realization that (just for one example) all of the Muslim nations do not have freedom of religion - if you are a jew or a christian you better watch out in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

Let ask you ADPiZXalum, is evertything in this quote factually correct?

[kddani]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Let ask you ADPiZXalum, is evertything in this quote factually correct?

haha. Well, we know it's not.

But it's easier to call us all mean and evil and attacking people than it is to actually get together some FACTS.

Originally posted by moe.ron
Let ask you ADPiZXalum, is evertything in this quote factually correct?

No, that reasoning actually does not necessarily make sense. I was talking about some quotes that she used by founding fathers. I know that doesn't make us a Christian nation per se, but it does indicate what some of their personal beliefs were. I am a Christian as well as many others on this board, and I know that doesn't make this board a Christian board, that's ridiculous. I understand whoever made the point about those being out of context in the sense that their personal beliefs don't necessarily mirror their actions in the foundation of the country. But how are they not factual?

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by ADPi Conniebama
First chief justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, John Jay, wrote:

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty ... of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." (1816)

William Penn

"Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants."

Even liberal Supreme Court chief justice, Earl Warren, wrote in 1954:

"I believe no one can read the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses ... .. a Christian land governed by Christian principles. I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it: freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under law, and the reservation of powers to the people ... I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country."

Washington also said:

"Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

"It is impossible to rightly govern . . . without God & the Bible."

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all the religion of Jesus Christ." to a group of Indian chiefs.

Thomas Jefferson, the man "blamed" for the wall of separation between church and state said:

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Abraham Lincoln:

"Unless the great God who assisted [President Washington], shall be with me and aid me, I must fail. But if the same omniscient mind, and Almighty arm, that directed and protected him, shall guide and support me, I shall not fail ... Let us pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now."

Teddy Roosevelt:

"In this actual world, a churchless community, a community where men have abandoned and scoffed at, or ignored their religious needs, is a community on the rapid down-grade."

Yes, I googled "christian nation." I also "cut and paste" so as not to make any grammatical errors.

I have enjoyed this thread and I hope everyone has had a wonderful time. I am going back to the shooting range to practice and to the bible to study. I am sure I will see all of the gc names again soon.

The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine


Apparently they couldn't come to any conclusions on that whole "Christian nation" thing . . .

[moe.ron]

Originally posted by ADPiZXalum
No, that reasoning actually does not necessarily make sense. I was talking about some quotes that she used by founding fathers. I know that doesn't make us a Christian nation per se, but it does indicate what some of their personal beliefs were. I am a Christian as well as many others on this board, and I know that doesn't make this board a Christian board, that's ridiculous. I understand whoever made the point about those being out of context in the sense that their personal beliefs don't necessarily mirror their actions in the foundation of the country. But how are they not factual?

I didn't even touch on the whole religious debate. To be honest, I would not care less. Her assertaion and evidence is ignorant at best, down right stupidity at worst. She needs to take remedial class in research methadology because if she ever take a class with my old professors, they would fail her on the spot. Nothing to do with her philosophy, it has to do with using incorrect facts to cover up her assertation that no other religions are allowed in predominantly Muslim nation, anywhere in the world.

Yes, many of us are being hard on her. It has more to do with teaching her how to compile a hypothesis that the professor can appreciate and she can get good grades. Trust me, our lessons are cheaper than going to a class, failing it and taking it over.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson, who at best can be described as a deist, also "re-wrote" the Gospels, if you'll recall. he removed all of the "irrelevant" and "unbelievable" parts -- meaning those parts that would suggest the divinity of Jesus.

I have found that often times, the "quotes of the founding fathers" pulled from the Internet should be accepted with a great deal of scepticism. Sometimes such quotes may be real, but other times the "quote" cannot be traced back further than the 1950's and has taken on a life of its own on the Internet.

[kddani]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Jefferson, who at best can be described as a deist, also "re-wrote" the Gospels, if you'll recall. he removed all of the "irrelevant" and "unbelievable" parts -- meaning those parts that would suggest the divinity of Jesus.

I have found that often times, the "quotes of the founding fathers" pulled from the Internet should be accepted with a great deal of scepticism. Sometimes such quotes may be real, but other times the "quote" cannot be traced back further than the 1950's and has taken on a life of its own on the Internet.

I think sugar and spice's post was a great example of that. Anyone can pull a quote off the internet, and quote it out of context, both textual context and historical context.

You can find quotes to support anything you want to see. But quotes aren't really hard evidence.

If you want to know the intent of the founders, you'd need much more extensive research. Just as in the law when the courts look at a law to determine what the statutory intent was, they look at it from a much bigger context than a isolated, out of context quote.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by moe.ron
Nothing to do with her philosophy, it has to do with using incorrect facts to cover up her assertation that no other religions are allowed in predominantly Muslim nation, anywhere in the world.

Did she say all Muslim nations throughout the world or did she mention just a couple like Iran?

This thread should be locked. You're all just going around insulting each other and Moe.ron usually locks up these types of threads earlier on.

-Rudey

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by kddani


If you want to know the intent of the founders, you'd need much more extensive research. Just as in the law when the courts look at a law to determine what the statutory intent was, they look at it from a much bigger context than a isolated, out of context quote.

Well, to me it's clear that, as nowhere in any of our founding documents does it say or even imply that the U.S. is intended to be a Christian nation, our founders as a whole decided that it was best that this country should not be a Christian nation. But maybe that's a leap.