Teacher's salaries

[AOII_LB93]

Originally posted by AWJDZ

In response to the reply about why doctors and lawyers have practices and why everyone else has a job...how many teachers have read Harry Wong's First Days of School book? Remember how he recommended you to frame your certification and degree and hang it up just like the doctors and lawyers? If you are doing your job correctly and the best of your ability, you are practicing what you know, just like them.

I reread that book right before the start of every school year. While a lot of what he says applies much better to elementary school, I take to heart what he says about dressing professionally, framing my degrees, etc... I am a professional.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Rudey
Even when they do something illegal, they are not let go. They are moved to desk jobs somewhere because the union can do that - unless it's incredibly heinous. And let's not all forget their pensions either.

I hate unions.

Our cleaning staff is union and they suck. They know they can be lazy as they want and they still won't get fired.

[James]

We don't pay large amounts of money to McDonald's workers or Retail sales people . . and they probably deal with worse people everyday.

Originally posted by winneythepooh7
I think this is a BS remark. Most teachers I know don't really "get off" in the summertime. In the summertime, they often have to take courses. Also, I don't think teachers are paid enough for what they have to go through. Try dealing with horrible parents and horrible kids all day long, and being blamed for it all.... I don't think many people can do it. My mom is a retired teacher and she woke up at 4AM every day, was at school by 7AM at the latest and stayed up until 11 at night working on lesson planning. I think ANY time off teachers get is well-deserved and I don't think I even hit the tip of the iceburg of what they go through. I knew someone was going to make that comment too!!!!

[texas*princess]

Originally posted by James
We don't pay large amounts of money to McDonald's workers or Retail sales people . . and they probably deal with worse people everyday.

it's retail?
come on.. even i have worked retail... i have dealt with bad people, but other than that, working retail is pretty brainless

when i was 16 i also worked in the fast food industry.. once again, does not take skill of any kind.

for both those jobs, once i left, i was done with it.. i never once had to take work home or work on lesson plans nor was i ever responsible for making 30+ people learn something. my job duties were almost purely customer service.. it doesn't take a degree or two to push buttons on a cash machine.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by texas*princess
it's retail?
come on.. even i have worked retail... i have dealt with bad people, but other than that, working retail is pretty brainless

when i was 16 i also worked in the fast food industry.. once again, does not take skill of any kind.

for both those jobs, once i left, i was done with it.. i never once had to take work home or work on lesson plans nor was i ever responsible for making 30+ people learn something. my job duties were almost purely customer service.. it doesn't take a degree or two to push buttons on a cash machine.

That's right. Working retail is brainless and teachers are brain surgeons.

-Rudey

[ADPiSAI]

From someone who worked 3 years in retail during college and is now a teacher...

They don't even COMPARE. Sure, I had my fair share of obnoxious customers, but once they were done screaming at you, they left your store, and you didn't know when, if ever, you would see them again. Their parent isn't going to call and blame their child's actions on you. You have an obnoxious student, and they're in your class every day, causing you all sorts of headaches... and then their parents join in.

You leave your retail job, you're done with it for the day. You leave your teaching job, you have papers to grade, lessons to plan, curriculums to write, textbooks to evaluate... I don't work from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. I work on school stuff until 8, 9 p.m. some nights. Because I have to.

You can't have ANY idea how hard it is to be a teacher unless you're actually teaching, no matter what you might think. I worked as a sub for several months and still had no idea until I was hired.

[AOII_LB93]

Originally posted by Rudey
That's right. Working retail is brainless and teachers are brain surgeons.

-Rudey

You know, I wasn't even going to comment on anything you've said Rudey, because thus far what you've said has been rather demeaning to my profession, and quite inflammatory. While I don't always agree with what you say, normally I can see your point, but quite honestly Rudey, that was a ridiculous comment.

No one said being a teacher was being a brain surgeon. It's not a job that just anyone is qualified to do, in that sense like a surgeon of any kind. I'm proud of what I do for a living. I work hard and I do the best that I can every day to make sure that I put care into my work because I chose this profession and what I say and do may make a difference in the lives of my students. Please don't continue to belittle it the way you have.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by AOII_LB93
You know, I wasn't even going to comment on anything you've said Rudey, because thus far what you've said has been rather demeaning to my profession, and quite inflammatory. While I don't always agree with what you say, normally I can see your point, but quite honestly Rudey, that was a ridiculous comment.

No one said being a teacher was being a brain surgeon. It's not a job that just anyone is qualified to do, in that sense like a surgeon of any kind. I'm proud of what I do for a living. I work hard and I do the best that I can every day to make sure that I put care into my work because I chose this profession and what I say and do may make a difference in the lives of my students. Please don't continue to belittle it the way you have.

Listen, I didn't belittle anything or anyone. But there are things I don't understand. I can never go get a PhD in chemical engineering at a top school because I'm just not able to. I can't ever run a sprint in the olympics because my lungs, legs, and musculature are not made for it. I can however deal with 30 nasty kids, with nasty parents and teach. I won't like it. I will hate it possibly. But I can do it. The same goes for retail. I would hate it (and did when I worked in retail) but I could do it. Nobody says anything when someone acts like retail is a job most people can do, but they take issue with teachers.

Now as for why you became a teacher, how much you make, and how much you deserve to make: again, it's fair in that you make what the market determines you are worth. There are more than enough teachers out there that they can offer that wage. Teachers are not leaving and driving the supply down so obviously the wages and benefits like pensions and vacations are worth it. Now, the only thing able to affect the market here is the union and that pushes your wage higher even though people do not see it as worthy of the wage you receive.

If it was up to me, nobody would be hungry and everyone could be rich and happy. In my little imaginary world, you could drive a Bentley. But I live in reality and you shouldn't try and say I'm belittling what you have. You are a teacher and enjoy it? Fine. Great. Wonderful. But if you say you deserve more, I say I deserve more, and the dude at Burger King says he deserves more...well...

-Rudey

[cash78mere]

well i just stumbled across this thread so i haven't had a chance to read everything everyone has said. i'll do that later.

but i wanted to put in my 2 cents.

honestly, after becomming a teacher i realized how different things were than how i THOUGHT they were back when i was in high school. yes, most teachers have masters degrees, but also have to get up to 90 additional credits over the years they teach. i never knew that as a student.

some teachers leave right after school so they can pick up their kids from day care/bus stop....but they bring home all their work with them! other teachers stay late because they don't have to be home right away. it's not fair to judge people who you see as "leaving early" because you just don't know their family situation.

i don't think a salary of 39K is reasonable. how can you purchase a house with that? i'll give you my example: i have my masters and over 60 credits above it. (each credit is 15 hours of work...you do the math!...it's a LONG process!) i earn close to 60K and will soon be making more when i get to 75 credits and 90 credits. (each credit mind you costs $200!!!!!!--again, do the math!) a small house in a not great area on long island is a minimum of $300,000. a decent house in a decent area is $450,000 +++++. even making $60K, i can't come CLOSE to affording a house yet. and i've been working 5 years!

i have my undergrad loans, masters loans, and have paid (out of pocket) for ALL of those 60+ credits (again--remember they are $200 a credit).

so am i really making that much money? no, i'm not. i've put in a lot of time, money and energy into making myself a great teacher.

it really isn't fair to complain about other professions unless you have personally experienced it. i spoke with a mom the other day who told me "you make it look so easy but i know how much you do. thank you for what you do for my son." that was a great thing to hear.

teaching isn't the easy job it's cracked up to be. i personally could never be a lawyer because i couldn't do it. i give them tons of respect. do i think lawyers need to charge the sometimes outrageous fees they do? no. but i also realize they have worked hard throughout school and need to pay bills and loans as well.

[Munchkin03]

What you just mentioned is the same for a lot of other professions.

$39K for a first-year teacher is pretty good when you consider that a first-year architect in NYC makes about $32K. You can add about $10K with a Master's...but with the average architecture Master's program in the area being around $800/credit, the loans start adding up. Also, unlike a M.Ed, a M.Arch is full-time and it's pretty damned hard to work even part-time while working on that degree.

But, my friends and I aren't complaining...because we knew what we were getting ourselves into.

[WhiteDaisy128]

I can however deal with 30 nasty kids, with nasty parents and teach. I won't like it. I will hate it possibly. But I can do it.

Go do it...then tell me you can. You KNOW you can't be a PhD candidate for a ChemE program, and you KNOW that you can't run in the olympics...but what makes you KNOW you would be able to be a teacher? Something like 80% of teachers quit with in the first 2 years because it's so friggin' hard with such little compensation.

And in what state does a first year teacher make 39k?

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by WhiteDaisy128

And in what state does a first year teacher make 39k?

NYC

[cash78mere]

ok. i've read the whole thread. many people made great points on both sides of the argument, but some people just sounded foolish.

do people really think all elementary teachers do is play with kids all day and teach them "2+2"? give me a break. i've taught K, 2nd, 4th, remedial math and academic enrichment. never once have we played all day. people don't understand that teaching young children new concepts takes an enormous amount of time and effort. go to someone who speaks chinese and have them tell you how to sing a song in chinese. have them tell you several times, and then have them write it in chinese for you. since they taught it to you you should get it right away, right? it should be a piece of cake, right? maybe it's not the best example, but that's what it's like teaching sometimes. most material is completely FOREIGN to most kids and takes teaching it several different ways. then repeating it several other ways.

i am constantly learning new ways to teach. i have one girl with CP in my class. no matter what i do, it's very hard for her to retain what i teach her. so i keep at it. and keep at it. and try new ways to teach her. and call her in for extra help before and after school. and contact her mom for conferences to teach her how to teach the girl at home. and that's just one kid. add in the child who is emotionally disturbed, the one who is low tone and literally can't keep himself in a chair or hold a pencil, the one who is already reading on a 5th grade reading level in 2nd grade, the one who refuses to do work and throws things around the room, the one who is violent and choked a kid 2 weeks ago, etc. and yet i am expected to teach all of these INDIVIDUALS with INDIVIDUAL needs in one day. am i a saint, maybe . maybe not. but i am paid to do my job and do it well and i take that very seriously.

people who don't teach have no idea how long it takes to make and create fun and interesting lessons. for my daily centers (45 min a day) it takes over 5 hours of planning time. then math (about 2 hours planning time), social studies (8-10 hours planning time), science, guided reading, writing, etc... you get my point. and that's PER WEEK. i don't just open a text book and read from it (although i DO admit there are some teachers who do do that and they are a disgrace).

anyone who is in the long island area who would like to shadow me for a day or 2 is WELCOME to come. contact me and you can watch exactly what i do. and you can help me if you wish. i'm serious--the invitation is open. i guarantee you'll have a new respect, as i probably would if i shadowed you for a day.

i had a friend who worked in Bloomingdale's corporate offices in manhattan who used to help out in my classroom a few times. this is a CAREER woman who was making about 85-100K a year. she came to my 4th grade class and shadowed me i think 4-5 times. she was amazed at what went on and definitely had a new appreciation for teachers (she's an AEPhi by the way!). i had her "teach" math one day (i think it was long division) and she couldn't do it. now before you say "you are trained to do it", no i'm not. i never took a class in teaching long division. i figured it out on my own and with the help of colleagues. yet even with my help, she couldn't do it.

************************************************
my point is that everyone has a hard job. everyone deserves to get paid what they're worth. and everyone has a different level of skill and education. stop judging people based on what you think you "know" to be fact about a profession. unless you experience it, you don't know.

oh---and i know many lawyers who make several hundred thousand dollars a year. my uncle works in new paltz, ny (a small town ) and makes over $700K a year. at least. and i have yet to see him go back for any classes each year.

stop judging others. i wish i could make $700K a year, but know it's impossible because i chose a profession i love, not one where i'll become rich.

and i sure as hell deserve my $60K a year. for anyone who doesn't think i do--come to my classroom. i can't wait to move out of my parents' home and buy my own. but unfortunately with my measly salary, i have many years to save up.

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Also, unlike a M.Ed, a M.Arch is full-time and it's pretty damned hard to work even part-time while working on that degree.

But, my friends and I aren't complaining...because we knew what we were getting ourselves into.

just wanted to let you know that my masters WAS full time. i took a full course load each semester in addition to teaching full time. many teachers i know do that. i would work until 3:30 and then go to class 4 days a week until around 8:30-9:30 and then i had saturday class for the whole day.

not everyone does it that way, but a lot do.

[dzsaigirl]

I don't have time to read this entire post (I am a teacher after all...I don't have much time for ANYTHING.)

I just wanted to add that I was at my school for 14 hours yesterday. Yes - 14 hours.

Should I mention that was a FRIDAY?

I teach K-5 music (certified PK-12). I have friends who thought that all I did was "bang on my drum all day" and that I didn't have to really "work" because I was "only a music teacher."

Then I recruited some of them to help me put up the backdrop and props for a musical. THEN they came to see the musical...

They now stand corrected. I am responsible for 933 students. I have to give a progress report on each one every 3 weeks and two report card grades for each student every 9 weeks. I cannot remember a week (other than Christmas) that I have not had some sort of training to attend. Also, I have yet to have a summer off since I started teaching 3 years ago.

I live near NASA and almost every one of my guy friends is an engineer there. They have fully admitted that they basically sit on their ass all day and get paid twice as much as I do.

I think that teachers should get paid more for what we do. It is really not a fair salary for the amount of work, regardless of the seemingly "cush" calendar.

That being said, I enjoy my job. I did not initially go to college to become a teacher, nor did I "default" into this career, as many people seem to believe is the case for most teachers. On the contrary, I felt a calling to work with children. In addition to this, I am happy that for MOST of my day, I don't have to deal with a-hole adults. (the operative word is MOST)

If teaching were so easy and the pay were so fair, why does the average teacher last about 3 years in the profession?

***Edited to add: I taught in a unionized district in RI for my first two years and now I am in a non-union district in TX (which is how they almost all are here). I will go on record saying that I feel that the teachers unions breed mediocrity and keep crappy teachers in the profession. Here in TX, you get fired if you suck. Period. And the quality of public schools is MUCH, MUCH higher. When I was in RI, anyone with any means whatsoever sent their kids to private school.