Will the Greek world ever desegregate?

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by ChaosDST
I don't know the size requirement for an organization's being in the NPHC---I can't even begin to explain that without lying

from the Consitiution & Bylaws of the National Pan-Hellenic Council, Inc. on www.nphchq.org

Article IV - Membership

Section 1: Affiliate Membership.

Affiliate membership in NPHC shall include Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc., Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc., Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Inc., Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc., Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc., Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority, Inc., Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc., Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc. and any other affiliate organization of the NPHC as may, from time to time, be granted membership. No other organization shall have the right to participate at the collegiate level. Affiliate membership shall also include local undergraduate and alumni councils chartered by the NPHC.

Section 2: Eligibility for Affiliate Membership.

To be eligible for affiliate membership in NPHC, a fraternity or sorority, which did not hold membership before December 1995, must meet the following requirements. The fraternity or sorority shall:
a. Be devoted to general fraternity or sorority ideals and be in conformity with the NPHC Constitution and Bylaws and the NPHC Mission Statement.
b. Have been in existence for at least twenty-five (25) years and shall have been incorporated in the United States of America.
c. Be national in scope and consist of a total of no less than one hundred (100) collegiate and alumni chapters, which have a current financial membership of at least five (5) persons. Of the aforesaid 100 collegiate and alumni chapters, a total of no less than fifty (50) must have been a part of the fraternity or sorority for at least fifteen (15) years.
d. Have constitutional provisions for a national convention, with interim authority vested in trustees, a board of directors or the officers who supervise the affairs of the fraternity or sorority.
e. Have collegiate chapters recognized by and be in good standing with accredited four-year colleges or universities which offer at least a baccalaureate degree.
For the purpose of this section “accredited” shall mean institutions in the United States which are accredited by one of the regional accrediting agencies in the American Council of Education. Institutions located outside of the United States shall be accredited by the appropriate agency/organization in that locale.
For the purpose of this section, a collegiate chapter is recognized by an institution, if its membership is drawn from students enrolled at such institution, and formal agreement with or recognition by such institution is required or implied.

[ChaosDST]

thanks soror.

Originally posted by 12dn94dst


from the Consitiution & Bylaws of the National Pan-Hellenic Council, Inc. on www.nphchq.org

Article IV - Membership

Section 1: Affiliate Membership.

Affiliate membership in NPHC shall include Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Inc., Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc., Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Inc., Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc., Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc., Sigma Gamma Rho Sorority, Inc., Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc., Omega Psi Phi Fraternity, Inc. and any other affiliate organization of the NPHC as may, from time to time, be granted membership. No other organization shall have the right to participate at the collegiate level. Affiliate membership shall also include local undergraduate and alumni councils chartered by the NPHC.

Section 2: Eligibility for Affiliate Membership.

To be eligible for affiliate membership in NPHC, a fraternity or sorority, which did not hold membership before December 1995, must meet the following requirements. The fraternity or sorority shall:
a. Be devoted to general fraternity or sorority ideals and be in conformity with the NPHC Constitution and Bylaws and the NPHC Mission Statement.
b. Have been in existence for at least twenty-five (25) years and shall have been incorporated in the United States of America.
c. Be national in scope and consist of a total of no less than one hundred (100) collegiate and alumni chapters, which have a current financial membership of at least five (5) persons. Of the aforesaid 100 collegiate and alumni chapters, a total of no less than fifty (50) must have been a part of the fraternity or sorority for at least fifteen (15) years.
d. Have constitutional provisions for a national convention, with interim authority vested in trustees, a board of directors or the officers who supervise the affairs of the fraternity or sorority.
e. Have collegiate chapters recognized by and be in good standing with accredited four-year colleges or universities which offer at least a baccalaureate degree.
For the purpose of this section “accredited” shall mean institutions in the United States which are accredited by one of the regional accrediting agencies in the American Council of Education. Institutions located outside of the United States shall be accredited by the appropriate agency/organization in that locale.
For the purpose of this section, a collegiate chapter is recognized by an institution, if its membership is drawn from students enrolled at such institution, and formal agreement with or recognition by such institution is required or implied.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought they all required more credits. Thanks for explaining that.

I guess I knew there were a few more than the big four - but I still dom't know of a campus where you'd have to look at nearly 20 groups! It's nuts to keep track of all that. Lots of girls take notes b/c you're trying to remember 17 houses after just a few minutes at each one. I only had five chapters to choose from, it was second semester, and I was still boggled.

Do you know how big the biggest smaller historically black sorority is (I mean, not AKA, DST, SGR or DST)? I'm just curious, because I know an org has to be very big before it can join NPHC.

Fuzzy Alum.....

Just to piggy back off of what you said earlier they are also a lot of other historically/predominately african american sororities on some campuses, which are not members of the NPHC, that students can choose from as well, such as Iota Phi Lambda or Lady Phi. Please check out the link http://www.blackgirl.org/sororities.html to see a pretty complete listing.
So potentially, an african american interest can have a lot to choose from as well. That is why research is soooooo important.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum


OK, dumb question - what is a nominating committee? I think every sorority has a different way of selecting new members. In some houses every girl may know why someone didn't get a vote. Elsewhere, very few people will know.

Sorry, Fuzzie. I used a DZ term there... Nominating committee is a group of women (in DZ, it's usually made up of a few elected or appointed representatives from each class) who make up the lists during Rush which state who is going to be invited back to the parties, and, eventually, who will receive a bid. Although they try to take everyone's opinions into account, the committee members eventually have the final say in who gets an invitation and who doesn't.

The sisters as a group don't know who has been invited back until just before the parties resume the next day. And, on Bid Day, they don't know who has been offered a bid until just before the bids are handed out to the rushees. Having a nominating committee makes the process a lot quicker than having all 150+ sorority members speak up individually as to whether they do or don't want to offer a rushee an invitation back to the house.

The way that we do it is that each sister can vote on each girl by writing their vote onto a slip of paper and turning it in to the committee. The sisters can only vote on a rushee if they had a chance to meet her. If they didn't, then they vote a "neutral". Nominating committee takes those votes, tallies them, and will use them in their decision-making process when making out invite lists for the next round of parties.

If a girl didn't meet a lot of sisters during Rush, was shy or not very talkative, then her chances of getting a bid (at our house anyway) isn't very good because the nominating committee won't have many votes to use as a decision-making tool.

For those who aren't familar with NPC Rushes, let me explain a little bit about the invitation/bid process:

(I know that I'm going on a tangent here, but please bear with me because I think it may help clear up some misconceptions that people unfamilar to NPC Rush have about the bid process -- and also help explain why I've been so firmly adamant about not thinking race is the only plausible reason for Twilley's cut during Rush at Alabama.)

The whole bid matching process is hard to explain, but I'll try to go through the basics because I think a lot of people are under the impression that if a sorority wants a certain girl, then they will always get that girl. With NPC rush, that's just not the case.

The thing about NPC Rush, especially at large schools that have hundreds or thousands of women going through each time, is that there is a certain "quota" set by Panhellenic Council as to how many girls each sorority can pick up during formal Rush. The sororities can pick up that number, but no more. And, many times, they won't make quota because of mismatched bids.

For example, one set of girls may love Susy Smith, but Susy didn't list their house as being one of her top 3 choices. Another house that Susy did list in her Top 3 also loves her. So, that's the house that will pick her up as a new member. Or, if Lisa lists ABC, DE, and FGH as her top three houses, but XYZ and RS are the only two houses who want to invite her back, then Lisa will be cut from Rush because she didn't express any interest in XYZ or RS. The girls in XYZ and RS may wonder why Lisa didn't like them, and Lisa may leave rush heartbroken thinking that the sororities didn't want her. That's a typical mismatched invite or bid, and it happens often - especially on campuses with large Greek systems.

Another situation that happens is, with each round of parties, Panhellenic Council sets a quota as to how many girls can be invited back to each house. Say the quota is 45 for the third round of parties. If there are 75 girls who the sisters are really impressed with, and would like to invite, then nominating committee has to make a list ranking the rushees. Girls who are legacies (i.e.: an immediate family member is a member of the sorority) get put at the top of the list out of respect to their family members. After the legacies come the other girls, and usually the number of votes helps to determine where each girl is positioned on the list.

For example, if Jane has made a great impression on two sisters and they absolutely love her and want her to come back to the house for the next round of parties, then nominating committee will take those 2 positive votes into consideration. But, the fact that Jane was a little shy and didn't talk to any more than those two sisters may be detrimental to her chances of being invited back. Because, if another rushee (I'll call her Mary) has made a great impression on two different sisters and a "good" impression on 3 more sisters, then she will be placed ahead of Jane Doe simply because she received more votes and more sisters were able to meet her.

So, in the end Mary becomes #45 on the invitation list and Jane is #46. Since quota for the parties is 45, Jane won't be invited back because she fell under the cut-off number -- even though she was nice and made a great impression on some of the sorority members. And, the two girls who met her may be puzzled and upset the next day when they don't see their "favorite" girl's name on the list of returning rushees.

So, the point I'm trying to get across is that many girls "fall through the cracks" during Rush simply because the sororities can't invite all of their favorites back, even though they may want to. (Of course, my example of Mary and Jane is rather simplistic -- there is actually much more to the invitation/bid process than what I'm going into right now -- but to go into all the rules would take forever.)

Also, one last tidbit: at Southern universities with large rush numbers, it is common for freshman rushees to be selected over equally impressive sophomore rushees. The reason is that most sororities are looking for girls who will remain active for the longest period of time possible, and the freshman rushees offer an extra year of service as opposed to their sophomore counterparts.

I hope that this explanation of the ins and outs of the NPC Rush process at large schools has been helpful, and that some of you will understand a bit more clearly why I am hesitant to state that racism played a part in Twilley being cut from Rush at Alabama. It's just that there are so many things that may have occurred during the bid/invite process that could have resulted in Twilley's cut.

Thinking about it last night, I realized that people who are not members of an NPC group may not understand exactly how complicated Rush can be, especially at large schools, and how easy it is for someone to be cut -- for no apparent reason to outsiders. I'm hoping that my explanation will clarify some things and answer a few questions. Please let me know if I've confused anyone or can explain something further.

**Disclaimer: I'm only speaking of my own personal knowledge concerning the Rush process. Each school conducts NPC Rush in a slightly different manner, although the main rules and procedures tend to stay about the same. Also, each sorority, and, in some cases, each chapter, has its own way of "voting" during Rush, and I wasn't speaking for anyone other than DZ when I mentioned how my particular chapter conducts rush selection. The information I've listed above is based on my personal experiences as a rushee, rusher, and alumna advisor to two chapters of my sorority at Southern universities.**

[FuzzieAlum]

Just to piggy back off of what you said earlier they are also a lot of other historically/predominately african american sororities on some campuses, which are not members of the NPHC, that students can choose from as well, such as Iota Phi Lambda or Lady Phi. Please check out the link http://www.blackgirl.org/sororities.html to see a pretty complete listing.

Thank you!

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by Alias23
"I don't take a discrimination claim at face value. I need proof of wrongdoing before I jeopardize the reputation of an organization -- something concrete that shows Twilley wasn't given a bid merely because of her race.

Were the girls rude to her? Twilley says no.

Did they ignore her at the rush parties, make her feel ill at ease while she was there, or do anything else to show that she was being set apart from the rest of the rushees? Twilley, again, says no.

If any of those things had happened, then I would be the first to say, "yes, race may have played a part." " -- dzrose

Now we're getting somewhere. My reference to you not answering my question dealt with your unwillingness to be specific. Now you've given somewhat specific examples of things that would cause you to consider that race MAY have played a factor in Twilley's denial of a bid (I interpret your response as saying that it would AT LEAST take the events you mentioned to consider that "race MAY have played a part" and to then investigate).

Alias, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. First, I just wanted to point out that I stated basically the same thing in a previous post to you. Here's what I said:

"It would be different if the girls in the houses had treated her terribly during Rush or showed any sign that they disliked Twilley because of her race. But, even in the article, Twilley comments on how sweet the girls were and how upbeat they were during the parties."

That was my original answer to your question about what kind of "evidence" I would need before making a decision concerning whether or not Twilley was discriminated against. I really just re-worded it a little in my last post, but if that re-wording clarified my point for you, then I'm glad I did it... I should have probably gotten a little more in-depth to begin with since it might have prevented the confusion. (I'm just bringing this up because I wanted to indicate that I haven't been consciously trying to side-step your questions.)

Originally posted by Alias23
The examples you have given do not surprise me, because they are some of the more obvious types of racist behavior (actually it's still hard to prove unless you have a witness because it's her word against theirs -- now what?). But what you must understand is that, these days, such acts are more rare because racists realize that they have to be more shrewd to get away with their discrimination. People who really are interested in keeping Blacks or another minority out of a group often don't do things as obvious as treat them rudely, ignore them, or make them feel uneasy because they know these things are cause for suspicion. Instead, those who engage in this type of behavior will give no indication whatsoever of their racist views or motives, and simply deny the person a membership/job/etc. because they don't want them there. These are the cases that African-Americans are dealing with most frequently -- the ones with no apparent "evidence." This is why we have to dig deeper and look at patterns of conduct and other things that give us an overall picture of whether or not someone is being discriminated against. This is when we apply the end-result rule to determine if the end-result is discriminatory rather than looking for only intent, because intent is often hard to prove given that racists are much smarter than they used to be. If we waited on something as obvious as the examples you gave to happen before we said, "yes, race MAY have played a part" as you stated, then most valid cases of racism would go uninvestigated.

You're absolutely right, Alias. It is sometimes very difficult to prove that racist discrimination is occuring, especially in the more "secretive" parts of society. And sororities, by their very nature, fall into that "secretive" category.

But, what everyone needs to remember is that it's also difficult sometimes to prove that racism ISN'T occuring - particularly in secret societies like Greek organizations. How can the sororities prove to Twilley that they didn't discriminate against her without compromising the standards upon which they were founded?

I know that some people believe that the easiest way would have been for Twilley to have been given a bid by an NPC sorority. But, what if racism really wasn't the reason for her exclusion? What if the girls had legitimate concerns about offering Twilley a bid for reasons other than her race? They shouldn't be forced to accept Twilley as a member of their organization just to prove that they aren't racist. So, what could the sororities do to prove their innocence in the discrimination claim? I simply don't know, and I'd honestly like to hear some people's suggestions.

The reason I find Twilley's case so difficult to pass judgement on is because the whole Rush process itself is so complicated. There are so many variables involved in matching rushees with sororities, and it's not a flawless operation. That's why I posted my little impromptu beginners' guide to "How the Rush Process Works" a little while ago in this thread. I'm trying to help people understand that it's very hard to discern, if not downright impossible, why each person has the Rush experience that they do. With all the rules and regulations NPC has set for Rush, it's very difficult for outsiders to determine why some girls end up at the house of their dreams while others end up somewhere they never expected, and still others end up nowhere at all. Rush is basically a game of chance -- the sorority members are all trying to second-guess one another to figure out who fits the best in their house and who would accept an invitation if it is given, while the rushees are trying to figure out which sororities liked them the best so that they'll know which groups to list on their invite cards. In the end, some of the results are good and some are not so good.

Originally posted by Alias23
"However, the only "evidence" that we have is Twilley's word that she "thinks" she was discriminated against. I'm not calling her a liar, I just feel that we should hear more of the story - from both sides - instead of taking her claim at face value.

Once again, I'm not saying that race WASN'T the reason for the cut. I'm just saying that people shouldn't automatically jump to that conclusion simply because one person says it is. That's all." -- dzrose

So you do think it is worth investigating (because earlier you inferred that there wasn't enough "evidence" to say "yes, race MAY have played a factor" and, thus, investigate)? If so, I'm glad you feel that way, but I thought before that you said it was your opinion that Twilley's denial of a bid was not based on race:

" The reason I made my comment (and I think Killarney made hers, although I won't speak for her on this), is because I feel that the whole Twilley incident was blown so far out of proportion. In talking to some people who have met Twilley, it became apparent that she quite possibly had an "agenda" to rushing - that she wanted to make some kind of statement as to how AA's are "treated" during NPC Rush at a Southern school. Through all of this, she made quite a name for herself, and in every article I've read, that Cherokee has been mentioned -- presumably to suggest that because she has a nice car, she should have been automatically granted entrance to an NPC sorority. " -- dzrose

That statement sounds very judgemental and made me believe that you were jumping to conclusions yourself before we had enough information.

I apologize for sounding judgemental. I guess I attribute my feelings to the fact that I've seen so many small sorority issues get turned into media nightmares, and it's a sore spot with me. Sometimes, things that occur during Rush are twisted by the media to portray sorority women in the worst possible light when, in actuality, there was no malice intended by the organizations at all.

I suppose the hype with Twilley's Rush experience simply rubbed me the wrong way. What started this entire dialogue was a comment I made about the type of car I drove when I went through Rush. I wasn't trying to flippantly dismiss Twilley's story -- I was simply frustrated by the fact that, in every article I've read, Twilley has been portrayed as the perfect potential member for an NPC sorority because of her family's status in the community and her material assets.

In reality, people outside of Greek Life have made a bigger deal about Twilley's financial status than an NPC organization would've ever done. And the stereotype that exists of NPC sorority women being spoiled little rich girls from affluent families just gets proliferated by articles like the one featuring Twilley and her Cherokee.

Don't get me wrong - I'm sure that there are some elitist chapters around who would be snobby enough to judge a rushee based on what her daddy does or what vehicle she drives. But those chapters are in the minority where NPC sororities are concerned, and they are certainly not representative of any of the chapters I've seen.

As far as my comment about Twilley having an "agenda": You're right, Alias. I did make an assumption, based on articles I've read and comments from fellow Greeks who have met Twilley personally, that Twilley had an agenda for rushing that second time. Perhaps it's an incorrect and unfair assumption to make and if it is, then I do apologize. But, if you think about it logically, it's not hard to see why people might form that impression.

After all, Twilley did voice her discrimination claim quite strenuously and publicly before going through Rush again. If she was seriously looking for a bid that second time around, she must have realized that calling her potential sisters racists wouldn't be the best way to win friends and influence people into inviting her to join their organizations. So you kind of have to wonder - if Twilley really just wanted to give Rush another shot and find out, on her own, if her first Rush ended poorly due to race issues or something else entirely, then why did she go public with her discrimination claim BEFORE her second Rush attempt? It's kind of like shooting yourself in the foot right before a big race. Do you see the point I'm trying to get across?

Originally posted by Alias23
"I'm all for investigating and reaching conclusions. As long as people remember that the conclusion part should come AFTER the investigation part. My point is that many people jump to conclusions and automatically believe that a racism claim is fact before checking to make absolutely sure that it is. The NPC sororities at Alabama should be "innocent until proven guilty", but some people believe them guilty and feel that they should prove their innocence. Doesn't seem very fair to me. " -- dzrose

I agree that it's unfair for people to jump to conclusions. I think you have the impression that I am one of those people, but in fact I have maintained throughout my posts that I just felt Twilley's experience should be investigated. You stated earlier that you think Twilley was wrong to "raise such a ruckus about it." I'm sorry if it bothers you when things like this hit the media, but please try and understand that it takes that type of action to draw enough attention to make sure that situations like this are investigated THOUROGHLY. Unfortunately, we can't stop people from jumping to conclusions one way or the other -- therein lies the problem. This is particularly true on an issue like racism, which touches people in an emotional way.

I do understand that it is sometimes necessary to get the media involved in order for a positive change to occur. However, I just have a problem with reporters taking every negative claim about Greeks as an indisputable fact, instead of taking the time to find out that there are many other possibilities for why something happened the way it did. In Twilley's case, I have yet to read an article that gives an NPC sorority's view on the Alabama Rush process. Not one article (that I've read anyway) took the time to mention the other reasons for why Twilley might not have received a bid. My little Beginner's Guide to Rush in this thread offered more detailed info than any news article I've seen and, to me, that's pretty sad. As a former journalist, I think it's pretty sloppy, not to mention biased, for a reporter to fail to report both sides of an issue equally -- and that goes for ANY issue, not just Greek related.

Originally posted by Alias23
"As far as already having minority members, first of all I have no proof of that other than what you're telling me, and secondly even if they did have minority members, that doesn't mean Twilley wasn't discriminated against. That's just like a White person who is accused of engaging in racist statements or conduct defending himself by saying "One of my friends is Black." If there are minority members at Alabama, that's something to consider, but we must look at the whole picture, which is why we must INVESTIGATE situations like this. Yes, we do have as you said, a difficult time proving those cases, but it has been done.

Thank you for answering my question. Now that you have, I think we will be able to understand each other better. I like working to understand people I disagree with rather than just dropping the subject because I feel both parties learn from it. I think the problem is we're miscommunicating a lot, though we may disagree a little. I appreciate your honesty, and anxiously await your reply to my comments.

I'll see if I can find the info on minorities at Alabama for you... I'll post a link for you if I can locate it online. Hopefully, I've cleared up any miscommunications, but please let me know if you have any questions. I certainly don't mind debating an issue... I just don't want to cause any hurt feelings or ill will, which is why I originally suggested we agree to disagree. However, I think we've both shown that we can "argue" diplomatically. Look forward to hearing your comments!

[Alias23]

"Alias, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. First, I just wanted to point out that I stated basically the same thing in a previous post to you. Here's what I said:

"It would be different if the girls in the houses had treated her terribly during Rush or showed any sign that they disliked Twilley because of her race. But, even in the article, Twilley comments on how sweet the girls were and how upbeat they were during the parties."

That was my original answer to your question about what kind of "evidence" I would need before making a decision concerning whether or not Twilley was discriminated against. I really just re-worded it a little in my last post, but if that re-wording clarified my point for you, then I'm glad I did it... I should have probably gotten a little more in-depth to begin with since it might have prevented the confusion. (I'm just bringing this up because I wanted to indicate that I haven't been consciously trying to side-step your questions.) " -- dzrose

I remember you saying that. I was just trying to get some specific examples of "treating her terribly" or "signs that they disliked her." Your follow up was a little more specific, and actually wasn't precisely what I was looking for, but good enough to move on (whew!).

Really, if Twilley had cited the examples you mentioned as reasons for believing she was discriminated against, it would still be her word against theirs. The sorors could easily deny her claims. Then what should she do? What I was basically trying to get you to consider was this: Suppose (just assume for a minute) that Twilley WAS denied a bid because of race, but that the sorors were careful to give her absolutely no outward indication that they were discriminating. Also suppose that this was happening in other instances at Alabama, and at other random schools across the country as well. Students across the country at these schools feel they are being discriminated against, but they have no examples of being mistreated or ignored (and even if they did they have no witnesses to come forward and prove it). What do you propose they do to prove their cases and prevent further discrimination?

(I will continue to address the rest of your post as well, but I want to give you a chance to reply to this question becuase I might be a while.")

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by VirtuousErudite



I totally agree that race may not have played a part, but I guess you can say that my viewpoint is skewed because I have PERSONALLY witnessed racism play a huge part in the selection or the lack their of , of two of the freshman guys I work with one last year and one this school year. You said you needed hard evidence, I am honestly wondering what would suffice, signed confession, hidden camera audio/video tape, racial slurs written on the walls? Ok, that one was a little far fetched but seriously what would serve as hard evidence??????

Hi Virtuous,

Sorry for not replying sooner. To answer your question about "hard evidence" concerning discrimination in NPC rush: Honestly, the main thing that I would consider (as I mentioned in my post to Alias earlier) is if the girls were rude to Twilley during her Rush -- if they made her feel ill at ease, ignored her, or in any way treated her differently than any other rushee at the parties. The thing is, Twilley herself admits that the girls were all nice to her and that she enjoyed her rush experience. She didn't feel as if she was treated differently while Rush was going on -- it was only afterwards that she formed her idea that discrimination was the reason for her lack of a bid.

Another example of evidence that I would examine closely... If several sorority members were to step up and claim that discrimination did take place and state when and how it happened, then I would be willing to take a harder look at the situation. The reason that their words might carry more weight than the rushee's? Because the sorority members are insiders to the issue -- they were actually involved in the Rush process on a deeper level and were privy to at least some part of the voting procedures.

However, and this is a BIG however, I still wouldn't take their word for it entirely. I would want to talk to other sisters in the chapter to get their opinions on the girls, and see how they were perceived within the organization -- to see what kind of sorority members the girls who came forward were. Were they assets to their chapters? Did they hold any offices? Did they represent their chapter positively on campus and in society? Did they have any personal reasons for wanting to bring negative publicity to their organization?

You would be surprised how often that happens. A disgruntled member who feels, for whatever reason, that she has been "wronged" by the organization, or certain people in the organization, can cause a lot of problems unnecessarily just out of spite. I've seen it happen several times - enough to know that it's a common occurence. So, I suppose that I would have to know something about the whistle-blower's character before I made a judgement about whether or not her story was true.

The problem with discovering discrimination in the Rush process is that Rush is SO complicated. There are numerous reasons for why a girl might be cut, and that's why I posted a summary of how Rush basically works -- so that people would be aware of the fact that sometimes there is no way to pinpoint exactly why a girl didn't receive a bid.

Just as there is no evidence that Twilley wasn't discriminated against, there is also no evidence that she was. It's a tough call to make. However, I'm willing to give the sororities the benefit of the doubt because, as I've stated before, in this country people are suppose to be innocent until proven guilty - not the other way around.

I hope this answers your question, Virtuous.

[VirtuousErudite]

Thanks for your response. Honestly, I believe that the chances of members coming forth and admitting that they openly discriminated are extremely slim. Also as I said before most acts of rascism are not blatant but are underlying. I know people who will smile in your face and when you turn you back the N-word is flowing like water from a waterfall. But, that is just my experience as a Black woman and I guess we just have different perspectives on just how realistic it will be for rasicists to stand up and say, Yes, I am rasicist. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by Alias23
[BReally, if Twilley had cited the examples you mentioned as reasons for believing she was discriminated against, it would still be her word against theirs. The sorors could easily deny her claims. Then what should she do? What I was basically trying to get you to consider was this: Suppose (just assume for a minute) that Twilley WAS denied a bid because of race, but that the sorors were careful to give her absolutely no outward indication that they were discriminating. Also suppose that this was happening in other instances at Alabama, and at other random schools across the country as well. Students across the country at these schools feel they are being discriminated against, but they have no examples of being mistreated or ignored (and even if they did they have no witnesses to come forward and prove it). What do you propose they do to prove their cases and prevent further discrimination? [/B]

You just hit on the toughest point... It's all hearsay, all he said/she said. There's no real way to tell, is there? And that's the frustrating part.

I don't really know of a clear-cut way for people to "prove" their discrimination cases concerning Rush. It's not that I don't think some of the claims are real -- I'm sure some of them are. And I seriously would like to see discrimination become extinct. It's just that, by trying to rid the Greek world of racism, it seems like somebody's rights or reputation are always going to get trampled on. In this case, the Alabama NPC sororities got some really bad press. Was it deserved? Maybe. Maybe not. I just hate to see the names of good chapters dragged through the mud if discrimination really wasn't a reason for Twilley's cut. A lot of people view Twilley as a victim. The truth is, the Alabama sororities could just as easily be victims, too. There's no way for us to know at this point.

Hope this makes sense... I'm typing fast because I'm about to leave! I'll chat tomorrow.

[Tom Earp]

I Know that I have posted this on Prevous threads, and I will take Flack for repeating this but here goes!

The First time I saw a Black Face on One of our Composites, I asked what is this!

Well, I met Brother R J at a Founders Day and Found him a Gentleman who more than Desearved to be called My Brother!

Our Patroness who is 97 years old thinks the world about him, as a Southern Lady! After I met Brother R J I love him as I would any Brother!
I found a Brother who I thought was Asain but who was India - an and sent him a Coat Of Arms Patch because he had the Flame in his heart and did not have one! I never met him, just talked on the phone!


He and R J are MY Brothers and will always BE> What Really makes me mad Is I have to work for a tan, and some have great Natural ones! Not a Racist comment so dont give me heat!


We all have the Love for the Greek System and We are All Brothers / Sisters on this site!

This could be the Best thing that any of us have ever stumbled onto to get to Know Each Other and interact! And that is the TRUTH!

[Alie549]

I was more interested in knowing if GLO's would ever become genderless... I know there are some less mainstream groups out there that are coed, but I can't help thinking that greek life could be better if the strong bonds we share were held between men and women...What do you guys think?

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by Alie549
I was more interested in knowing if GLO's would ever become genderless... I know there are some less mainstream groups out there that are coed, but I can't help thinking that greek life could be better if the strong bonds we share were held between men and women...What do you guys think?

I seriously doubt GLO's will ever become "genderless". I certainly hope not! I joined DZ so that I could interact with women that I had things in common with, and so that I could create lifelong bonds of friendship. I can talk about ANYTHING to my sisters without fear of ridicule or sarcasm. There are just some things that women can't share with men, and I think breaking down the gender barrier would be detrimental because it would be impossible to share the same type of bond with a man than with a woman (and vice versa for the guys).

[Alias23]

"I seriously doubt GLO's will ever become "genderless". I certainly hope not! I joined DZ so that I could interact with women that I had things in common with, and so that I could create lifelong bonds of friendship. I can talk about ANYTHING to my sisters without fear of ridicule or sarcasm. There are just some things that women can't share with men, and I think breaking down the gender barrier would be detrimental because it would be impossible to share the same type of bond with a man than with a woman (and vice versa for the guys)." -- dzrose

A lot of people feel that way, and it probably will take much longer to have co-ed GLO's than to integrate them (at best there will only be SOME that are co-ed anytime soon). The same mindset is often applied when considering race because people feel a special bond with people of thier own race. The question is, regardless of that, should someone of the opposite sex still have the option to try and join just like someone of a different race? Or is exclusion of a particular gender ok? If you can't exclude someone because of race, then why should you be able to exclude them because of gender? I mean, I know most people would continue to remain in groups with their own gender, similar to how most people continue to pledge to frat/sororities that are predominantly their own race, but should the option to join still be there for people regardless of race, gender, etc? There would still be other men/women for you to bond with, it just wouldn't be exclusively men/women anymore (I know, "It's not the same"). I'm not stating an opinion one way or the other, just wondering what everyone thinks.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by Alias23
[BThe question is, regardless of that, should someone of the opposite sex still have the option to try and join just like someone of a different race? Or is exclusion of a particular gender ok? If you can't exclude someone because of race, then why should you be able to exclude them because of gender? I mean, I know most people would continue to remain in groups with their own gender, similar to how most people continue to pledge to frat/sororities that are predominantly their own race, but should the option to join still be there for people regardless of race, gender, etc? There would still be other men/women for you to bond with, it just wouldn't be exclusively men/women anymore (I know, "It's not the same"). I'm not stating an opinion one way or the other, just wondering what everyone thinks. [/B]

I can't speak for any GLO except my own, but I personally think that no organization should be forced to accept a person of a different sex if it goes against the founding principles of the organization itself. For example, Delta Zeta was founded specifically for women and her ceremonies and rituals were designed with women in mind. To accept someone of a different sex would make no sense, because the standards that make Delta Zeta what it is are applicable only to women. I certainly can't go into detail, but believe me when I say that it would be pointless to initiate a man into our circle. Our rituals are meaningless to men, and have no symbolism associated with them.

I just don't think that every organization should be forced to be all things to all people, just for the sake of equality. (I'm talking about gender here, not race.)