Teacher's salaries

[kddani]

Originally posted by AXiD670

Sure, it's probably not like that everywhere, but it just surprises me to hear about teacher's unions having such "power." (of course, it's also surprising to hear about teaching salaries higher than $50,000.)

Also, how can these teachers strike? I thought it was illegal for teachers to strike.

The teacher's union just has a huge amount of power here, as I'm learning that's certainly not commonplace elsewhere.

It's not illegal for them to strike (not sure if this is state or federal governed, I don't know much about education law), but I think they can only strike for so long before they have to return to work. But it's still at least a couple weeks. And all the time has to be made up. Which means some schools end up going to the end of June or even into July, and having almost no breaks

[Rudey]

Originally posted by AXiD670
I just wanted to interject a quick comment re teacher unions. I think everyone is over-estimating their power.

In the county where both of my parents were teachers, the teacher's union was little more than a company union. It didn't really do much for the teachers, if anything at all. I know several teachers who were terminated even though they were part of the teacher's union.

Sure, it's probably not like that everywhere, but it just surprises me to hear about teacher's unions having such "power." (of course, it's also surprising to hear about teaching salaries higher than $50,000.)

Also, how can these teachers strike? I thought it was illegal for teachers to strike.

So you're asking about teacher's striking, didn't realize how much teachers make on average and on the high end, and are delivering a lesson on teacher's unions? I just wanted clarification.

-Rudey

[Rudey]

Basically those statements are meaningless.

You don't know how many teacher spots are being filled by unqualified people and you don't know how that compares to other profession.

Truthfully, neither do I. I don't think anyone does.

-Rudey

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
Finding random statistics on the Internet is not my strong point. But I will direct you to this website, about North Carolina education, which specifically states:

"Our state is experiencing an unprecedented demand for additional public-school teachers. In fact, over the next ten years North Carolina public schools will need over 100,000 new teachers. This year alone, we expect to hire more than 12,500 teachers."

and

"While traditional teaching programs of colleges and universities in and beyond our state continue to help fill many new positions, these institutions cannot completely satisfy our urgent and growing demand for new teaching professionals. As a result, we need to look beyond the traditional sources."

Teach4NC


So make of that what you will. I personally know several people who have procured teaching positions recently through the lateral entry program as well.

I did not state that these untrained teachers were village idiots, as they do have collegiate degrees. But teaching methodology is not something that is innate... it requires training and practice, which these alternatively-liscensed teachers will not have until AFTER they have already been placed in the classroom. Unless you can demonstrate that law firms are hiring lawyers who did not go to law school, then it's obviously not the same.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by Rudey
Basically those statements are meaningless.

You don't know how many teacher spots are being filled by unqualified people and you don't know how that compares to other profession.

Truthfully, neither do I. I don't think anyone does.

-Rudey

No, and I never claimed to know. Particularly because we also don't really know how many education students are failing PRAXIS exams either. You aren't telling me that lawyers are being bar-certified without going to law school though.

It seems to me that you don't really think the intelligence of public school teachers is very important. Or is it that you don't think teachers deserve to be paid more?

As you can see by my NC statistics, there aren't any NC teachers being paid 75K to teach. I do think that's quite a bit of money for teachers. BUT the starting salary for a first-year teacher here is downright ridiculous. My own mother is a teacher, and so many of the young teachers at her school wait tables on the weekends and over the summer because they are not making enough money in their careers. To me, teachers are more important than that.

[WCUgirl]

Originally posted by kddani
The teacher's union just has a huge amount of power here, as I'm learning that's certainly not commonplace elsewhere.

It's not illegal for them to strike (not sure if this is state or federal governed, I don't know much about education law), but I think they can only strike for so long before they have to return to work. But it's still at least a couple weeks. And all the time has to be made up. Which means some schools end up going to the end of June or even into July, and having almost no breaks

That's interesting. It must be a state or perhaps a county thing. In my home county (where my parents were teachers), it was illegal for teachers to strike at all, unless that's changed in the last couple of years.

Personally, I don't see the point in belonging to a union if you can't even strike.

[kddani]

I do feel that NC's situation is horrible. A friend, who had a BS was recruited to go to NC and teach HS physics or chemistry. I don't know why he even went to begin with- no relocation help, I believe around $24K a year salary, not sure if he even had benefits. He stayed for 2 weeks then quit. He loved his students but no one can live like that. He had no teaching experience or education. I believe that if you teach down there for so long you can get a certificate or something? Not sure. It was something like that, and he had planned to come back up here to teach.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
No, and I never claimed to know. Particularly because we also don't really know how many education students are failing PRAXIS exams either. You aren't telling me that lawyers are being bar-certified without going to law school though.

It seems to me that you don't really think the intelligence of public school teachers is very important. Or is it that you don't think teachers deserve to be paid more?

As you can see by my NC statistics, there aren't any NC teachers being paid 75K to teach. I do think that's quite a bit of money for teachers. BUT the starting salary for a first-year teacher here is downright ridiculous. My own mother is a teacher, and so many of the young teachers at her school wait tables on the weekends and over the summer because they are not making enough money in their careers. To me, teachers are more important than that.

You never claimed you knew but you are out there telling us how teacher spots are being filled by under trained people. That's great.

And I think the market will determine how much teachers are paid. They are getting more than they're worth right now because unions can interfere.

-Rudey

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by Rudey
You never claimed you knew but you are out there telling us how teacher spots are being filled by under trained people. That's great.

And I think the market will determine how much teachers are paid. They are getting more than they're worth right now because unions can interfere.

-Rudey

I said I didn't know the percentages. I know for a fact it's happening, because it's happening in my home school system and other school systems across the state. Whether it's 1% of the newly hired teachers or 10%, it is still occuring (according to NCTEACH, currently in 80 of NC's 100 counties). Not to mention the Teach4NC site states that they are actively recruiting these pseudo-teachers... I don't know how much more obvious it can be.

My entire POINT is that you may think that kddani's teachers are being overpaid, but her school system is not the norm. I would imagine that getting a teaching job in her system would be quite competitive... in most counties in North Carolina, schools are begging people to teach.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
I said I didn't know the percentages. I know for a fact it's happening, because it's happening in my home school system and other school systems across the state. Whether it's 1% of the newly hired teachers or 10%, it is still occuring (according to NCTEACH, currently in 80 of NC's 100 counties). Not to mention the Teach4NC site states that they are actively recruiting these pseudo-teachers... I don't know how much more obvious it can be.

My entire POINT is that you may think that kddani's teachers are being overpaid, but her school system is not the norm. I would imagine that getting a teaching job in her system would be quite competitive... in most counties in North Carolina, schools are begging people to teach.

Again you don't know. 1% is meaningless. 1% is an outlier. Let me repeat, just in case you didn't catch the first line, you don't know.

And we can always look at the average as opposed to "teacher in NC are piss poor" and "teachers in PA are rich". And with that, the market determines how much they get paid unless a union steps in and their salaries are forced higher.

-Rudey

[AOII_LB93]

Originally posted by kddani
1) It's not the same kind of knowledge. A teacher isn't learning new things about calculus everyday, or reading. It's a different kind of knowledge to me. I don't view everything you learn in life as the falling in the same category.

2) Being paid more money doesn't necessarily equal better. People can assume all they want, I don't care, but I know what I meant.

3) There are many more barriers to being a lawyer. You have to do well in college. You have to score well enough on the LSAT. You have to get through law school. You have to pass the bar. So while I agree there are many lawyers out there that have the common sense of a doorknob, you have to be of a reasonable intelligence level to be a lawyer.

I never said I hated teachers or that they had no value. But my high school teachers, and I can reasonably deduct which ones are making the $75K, are NOT worth that, especially when there are many thing that they did not prepare me for.

As to point #1: An effective teacher is learning new things about their subject, methodology, and their students every day.

#2 - Totally true. There are plenty of teachers that make more money than they should for sitting on their butts and telling students to read and do exercises from the book. But then again, they aren't really "teaching" so you can't call them teachers, they are chair warmers who get paid too much for having a title they don't deserve.

#3 There may be more barriers to being a lawyer, but as far as I am concerned(as are my friends who teach) you need to do very well in college and know your topic to be an effective and productive teacher. Just because I speak English fluently and it was my first language does not mean that I am equipped to teach it. Just because I took Calculus, Bio, Chem, etc...doesn't mean that I can teach it.

You know, I had some awful teachers in HS...as a matter of fact I knew more French than my French teacher. I became a teacher because it was something I was drawn to do, because I hope to inspire and serve my community, and to educate my students, not because the money was good. No one goes into teaching thinking, "Oh yeah, in 30 years I'll be making 75 K a year."

Saying that teachers are paid enough is fine...after they've been teaching 20 years or so. I hope to be making 75K in 20-30 years. I just find it disheartening that so many people seem to think that what I do doesn't deserve fair compensation for the amount of education that I have. Two Master's degrees and a BA, and I still make less that you will starting as a clerk..and this is my 4th year.

[AXORissa]

Originally posted by kddani
So reading my local newspaper... my high school's teachers are threatening to go on strike. Currently, "the starting salary for a teacher with a master's degree at South Fayette is $39,250, approximately $3,500 above the county average, according to the school district.The average teacher's salary is $55,940 a year, with one-third of South Fayette teachers earning more than $75,000 a year."

I know this isn't normal across the country, but all of you complaining come teach in PA!

It's sad that the average teacher's salary from my HS is fairly likely to be more than i'll make starting out of law school.

and one third of them making over $75K???? it's no wonder the school taxes are so high!

I think teachers DESERVE to make more money. Maybe if their salaries are increased, more qualified people will want to become teachers. I never even considered it because I wanted to make more than $35,000 starting out.

I too will be making less coming out of law school than the 1/3 who make $75,000, but good for them! THey are making that salary after years of experience... I am making nearly as much with little work experience and a LOT of school. I will surpass those teachers in two years. Lawyers have unlimited potential to make money. Teachers do not.

[AXORissa]

Originally posted by valkyrie
If you're clerking for a judge and make less than $39k a year, something is wrong. Five years ago when I was fresh out of law school, I made about $46,500 as a brand new judicial clerk.

NJ Superior Court clerks make $35,000.

Which is why I chose a firm job and am not clerking.

[WhiteDaisy128]

I struggle to pay rent and utilities each month as a first year teacher. I get up early and stay up late. I lesson plan all the ever "free" moment I have. I have no social life. I know things will get better (time management wise). The first two years are supposed to be the hardest. I'll stick it out (long enough to get my Masters and my PhD) for a while, then teach at the university level where I can make a decent living.

I love the kids though. And they make the long nights and little pay worth it. SOMEONE has to do it.

http://cj.kavefish.net/albums/pjday/..._004.sized.jpg

[Dionysus]

Damn this thread blew up so quickly. This morning there were only like 15 posts. Kddani, you're such a little shit stirrer you!

[AWJDZ]

Originally posted by kddani
I do feel that NC's situation is horrible. A friend, who had a BS was recruited to go to NC and teach HS physics or chemistry. I don't know why he even went to begin with- no relocation help, I believe around $24K a year salary, not sure if he even had benefits. He stayed for 2 weeks then quit. He loved his students but no one can live like that. He had no teaching experience or education. I believe that if you teach down there for so long you can get a certificate or something? Not sure. It was something like that, and he had planned to come back up here to teach.

You can not teach in NC for "so long" and become certified. You must go back to college and recieve you certification within 5 years... and they have a requirement on the number of classes you must take every year, not just one here and one there. You also must pass the Praxis 1 and the Praxis 2 in your area. I have a friend how graduated from Clemson with an education degree and decent grades. He could not pass the praxis 2 with the score that NC requires. They let him work for 2 years as long as he continued trying to pass. After his 2nd year and still no passing score, he was let go by the state. He could move somewhere that met his scores, but his wife and child are here. He is such a great teacher and role model for the students, he is a exceptional childrens assitant. He is making a little over half of a teachers salary now. The "No Child Left Behind" law is going to take care of that all together. Everyone is going to have to be a highly qualified teacher. Honestly, the fact that he did not have his certification was his first problem. Without taking the methods course, I doubt he could not have known what he was jumping head first into. NC offers pretty decent benefits...I have never really had a problem with mine. My starting salary, with graduate hours and 2 coaching jobs was about that much. I am not making much more than that now. I am trying to become Nationally certified. I chose to stay in NC for personal reasons. I am not from here and I had job offers in Va and other states. I seriously doubt most could live comfortably off of my salary. It is not easy for me either...I love to go out, wear my citizen jeans with my real LV bag, vacation, and drive a decent car. No, I do not have credit cards...it all comes out of that check, plus my side job. I pay for most of my workshops I attend, some equipement in my classroom, extra outside stuff I use at school, and supplies. It is not just teachers who are underpaid, school systems are underfuned. How happy would you be if your child had to sit out of half of my class because I didn't have enough hockey sticks for everyone or enough books for every child to have one and take home? That is a whole other ball game. I even buy the dertergent to wash my uniforms. I am not complaining, because this what I chose to do going into college, I researched it, and I love it. I do not really care for the lateral entry program, just like you might not care for a lawyer who's LSAT was not high enough to get into law school, but they did. I do support "NCLB", but it needs to be properly funded. I could have been the PE teacher who did nothing and did not care that all the kids were fat. You could also be the lawyer I paid $300 to get me out of my speeding ticket, and he didn't show up in court. Yes, you might be able to show up for work for me, take roll and do that type of stuff. No, I do not believe you could do my job. I might be able to sit in your office and respond to emails, but I could never show up in court and defend the family of a murder teenager. I know this reply is rambled, but there have been so many off the wrong path responense here...its hard to find the arguement.


In response to the reply about why doctors and lawyers have practices and why everyone else has a job...how many teachers have read Harry Wong's First Days of School book? Remember how he recommended you to frame your certification and degree and hang it up just like the doctors and lawyers? If you are doing your job correctly and the best of your ability, you are practicing what you know, just like them.