On Reagan Passing....

[Eclipse]

Originally posted by Kimmie1913
I don't think his sentiments about what was done by Reagan or his administration was in bad taste...calling it a party to celebrate the fact that the man is dead is what I think put people off. I think that all of the whitewashing of history is ridiculous and dangerous. Yeah, ‘if you don't have anything good to say don't say nothing at all’ sound good but I think a lie of omission is still a lie. It is okay to speak the truth about what went on during the Reagan Administration. I think reveling in the death of anyone is in bad taste no matter how good or bad the person was.

I hate posts that simply co-sign without adding anything of value, but I must say I agree 100%

[abaici]

Originally posted by Ideal08
How is this any different from what Russ Parr and his cronies said the other day? I don't understand why there are certain things people are not allowed to have opinions about. Now, just because the man is dead, people have to hold in "negative" opinions? I love how freedom of speech only works when speaking in favor of the status quo. A lot of what this kid said is the truth. But that all gets swept under the rug because it's seen as being in bad taste? When do people get to talk about all the jacked up stuff that this man did? How long does he have to be dead before it's talked about? Or is it protocol that after someone dies, you don't say anything negative about them? Does death erase wrong doings? Maybe I'm in a bad mood today, but WHO CARES??

SO WHAT?

As much as I disliked the man, I think that was a bit much. I too, am TIRED of all the pomp and circumstance and the rewriting of history. As I said before, this man did some HORRIBLE things that my community (and others) are still paying for. Yesterday, I was so fed up with all of the coverage that I yelled out,"JUST BURY HIM ALREADY, D@&#(%!". Still, I thought celebrating that the man was finally dead was in poor taste. Tell the truth! Nothing wrong with telling the truth, but some things were a little insensitive. But, I think that speaks more to my personal tolerance level.

[RedefinedDiva]

OK, I broke. I'm soft and I'm a sucker. I know it.

Here I was thinking it was all over (like I said in my earlier post) and they are now in California for the sunset burial. Well, of course, I tuned in for a while to see the folding of the flag, etc. After the flag was folded and presented to Nancy, when she went up the the coffin and broke down, all I could do was cry. Oh my goodness. My heart goes out to her. Imagine being with and loving someone so deeply for so many years.... I found myself shouting at the TV, "Y'all help your mama!" I was wondering how long it would take for them come come over to support her. Nancy, understandably, had so much pain, sorrow, and grief in her eyes. Then, when the kids came over, she looked at them as if to say, "Ronnie, you left me here with these flakes?"

It's time for this to be over. I want Nancy to hae some peace and private time to express her sorrow. She has barely had a private moment since Saturday.

[abaici]

Reagan blasts Bush
"My father crapped bigger ones than George Bush," says the former
president's son, in a flame-throwing conversation about the war and
the Bush administration's efforts to lay claim to the Reagan legacy.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By David Talbot


April 14, 2003 | The Bush inner circle would like to think of George
W.'s presidency as more of an extension of Ronald Reagan's than of his
one-term father's. Reagan himself, who has long suffered from
Alzheimer's disease, is unable to comment on those who lay claim to
his political legacy. But his son, Ron Jr., is -- and he's not pleased
with the association.

"The Bush people have no right to speak for my father, particularly
because of the position he's in now," he said during a recent
interview with Salon. "Yes, some of the current policies are an
extension of the '80s. But the overall thrust of this administration
is not my father's -- these people are overly reaching, overly
aggressive, overly secretive, and just plain corrupt. I don't trust
these people."

Reagan spoke with Salon from his home in Seattle, where he lives with
his wife, Doria, a psychologist. A former ballet dancer ("At 45, I'm
afraid those days are over"), he has worked in recent years as a
magazine journalist and a TV personality, currently hosting dog shows
for the Animal Planet network ("I live 'Best in Show'"). He and Doria
have three cats, but no children ("They're like kids, without the
tuition"). Though he never followed his father into politics, Reagan
takes a strong interest in public issues, serving on the board of the
Creative Coalition, an organization founded in 1989 by performers like
Susan Sarandon and Christopher Reeve to politically mobilize
entertainers and artists. Reagan recently moderated a Creative
Coalition panel discussion in San Francisco on the topic of free
expression during wartime, featuring Alec Baldwin on the left and
Michael Medved on the right (and a smoldering Sean Penn in the
audience).

Reagan, still as lean as he was in his dancing days, has a sharp
tongue -- but like his father, he has a knack for softening his barbs
with a charming affability and disarming sense of humor.

Reagan took a swipe at Bush during the 2000 GOP convention in
Philadelphia, which featured a tribute to his father, telling the
Washington Post's Lloyd Grove, "The big elephant sitting in the corner
is that George W. Bush is simply unqualified for the job... What's his
accomplishment? That he's no longer an obnoxious drunk?" Since then
he's been quiet about the current occupant of the White House -- until
now.

Some observers have compared Bush's persona as an intellectually
challenged but politically gifted leader to that of Reagan. But the
younger Reagan vehemently rejects the analogy. "The gunslinging
cowboy, the actor who just read his lines -- that stereotype doesn't
fit who my father really was.

"My father had decades of experience in public life. He was president
of his union, he campaigned for presidential candidates, he served two
terms as governor of California -- and that was not a ceremonial
office as it is in Texas. And he had already run for president,
against Ford in '76, nearly unseating the sitting president in his own
party. He knew where he was coming from, he had spent years thinking
and speaking about his views. He didn't have to ask Dick Cheney what
he thought.

"Sure, he wasn't a technocrat like Clinton. But my father was a man --
that's the difference between him and Bush. To paraphrase Jack
Palance, my father crapped bigger ones than George Bush."

Reagan says he doesn't have anything personal against Bush. He met him
only once, at a White House event during the Reagan presidency. "At
least my wife insists we did -- he left absolutely no impression on
me. But Doria remembers him very negatively -- I can't repeat what she
said about him, I'd rather not use profanity. I do remember Jeb -- a
big fella, seemed to be the brightest of the bunch. And of course
their parents were very charming."

But Reagan has strong feelings about Bush's policies, including the
war in Iraq, which he ardently opposes. "Nine-11 gave the Bush people
carte blanche to carry out their extreme agenda -- and they didn't
hesitate for a moment to use it. I mean, by 9/12 Rumsfeld was saying,
'Let's hit Iraq.' They've used the war on terror to justify everything
from tax cuts to Alaska oil drilling."

Of course, Reagan's father was also known for his military buildup and
aggressive foreign policy. "Yes," he concedes, "there are some
holdovers from my dad's years, like Elliott Abrams and, my God,
Admiral Poindexter, who's now keeping watch over us all. But that
observation doesn't hold up. My father gave a speech a couple years
after he left the White House calling for 'an international army of
conscience' to deal with failed states where atrocities are taking
place. He had no thought that America should be the world's policeman.
I know that for a fact from conversations I had with him. He believed
there must be an international force to intervene where great human
tragedy was occurring. Rwanda would have been a prime example, where a
strike force capable of acting quickly could have gone in to stop the
slaughter.

"Now George and Dick and Rummy and Wolfy all have a very different
idea about America's role in the world. It was laid out by [Deputy
Secretary of Defense Paul] Wolfowitz back in '92 -- Iraq is the center
of the Middle East, its axis, and it's of such geo-strategic
importance that we can't leave it in the hands of Saddam. We need to
forcibly change that regime and use Iraq as a forward base for
American democracy, setting up a domino effect in the region, and so
on. My father, on the other hand, was well aware of the messiness of
the Middle East, particularly after [the 1983 bombing of the Marine
barracks in] Lebanon."

Reagan says his opinions about the war were not changed by the rapid
fall of Baghdad. "Look, whether or not Saddam was a bad guy, or
whether the Iraqi people were terribly oppressed, was never the issue.
I mean I'm happy for the Iraqis, but that's not what this was all
about. Nor was the military conclusion ever in doubt; this was the
Dallas Cowboys playing a high school team. Their army was a third the
size it was in '91, and it didn't give us much trouble then.

"And the weapons of mass destruction? Whatever happened to them? I'm
sure we'll find some," he laughs. "They're being flown in right now in
a C-130.

"There were, and will be, a lot of people killed over there. And if
you don't care about the Iraqi casualties, what about the American? We
stand to lose more people in the next months of occupation than we
lost in the weeks of war. One of the reasons we escaped largely
unscathed so far was because our military moved so fast. But now we're
sitting targets -- we have to establish bases, patrol the streets,
guard checkpoints. We're sitting targets for suicide bombers and other
terrorists."

Reagan's parents were notoriously remote from their four children. Ron
Jr. reportedly had the closest relations with his parents and he
remains close with his mother, Nancy Reagan, who as the keeper of the
Reagan flame is often called upon to dedicate public sites bearing her
husband's name. Reagan says his mother shares his "distrust of some of
these [Bush] people. She gets that they're trouble in all kinds of
ways. She doesn't like their religious fervor, their aggression."

Reagan says his family feels particularly alienated from the
Republican Party over its opposition to embryonic stem cell research,
which could have significant benefit for Alzheimer patients like his
father. "Now ignorance is one thing, ignorance can be cured. But many
of the Republican leaders opposing this research know better, people
like [Senate Majority Leader] Bill Frist, who's a doctor, for God's
sake. People like him are blocking it to pander to the 20 percent of
their base who are mouth-breathers. And that's unconscionable -- there
are lives at stake here. Stem cell research can revolutionize
medicine, more than anything since antibiotics."

Reagan, who says the label "progressive" would fit him, does not
belong to a political party. "I'm certainly not a Republican; I
couldn't belong to any party that had leaders like Tom DeLay. And the
Democrats are too busy trying to out-Republican the Republicans."

His father entered politics at a relatively late stage in his life,
after careers as a sports broadcaster, actor and General Electric
pitchman. Has Reagan ever considered running for office? No, he
insists, "I have no political ambitions. For one thing, I'm not
interested in raising all that money. It's just not the life I want to
lead. When is the last time you heard a politician speak his mind?
McCain? Yes, he came close. But I once asked him at a Creative
Coalition meeting, 'You talk passionately about this nexus of money
and influence that is corrupting our democracy. Why don't you name
names?' His response was a demurral.

"I have no problem with public service. And yes, better people should
be running for office. But personally I just can't see myself doing
it, to live in Washington D.C., the whole package. I was immersed in
that my whole life. I saw politicians up close and there were so many
who just repulsed me."

What if a group of concerned citizens approached him and helped raise
money for his entry into politics -- would that make a difference?
"You mean like they did with George W.? 'Hey, you've got name
recognition, that's all that matters -- we'll give you millions of
dollars to run!' Imagine coming to a man with just two years'
experience in public office, and a ceremonial one at that. Imagine
installing such a blank slate in the presidency of the United States!
This is a regency, not a presidency.

"And they told us, 'Don't worry about W. not knowing anything, good
old Dick Cheney will be his minder.' Dick Cheney? And this was going
to be compassionate conservatism? Dick Cheney is to the right of
Genghis Khan, he wants to drill in your backyard, he wants to deny
black people their rights --it was all there in his voting record for
us to see. What were we, rubes?"

While Reagan rejects a political career, he clearly doesn't shy from
speaking out. What if GOP conservatives, who still lionize his father
as the greatest president of the 20th century, pressure him to shut
up? "That wouldn't be a smart thing for anyone to do."

[DST_DREAMS]

:::::NODDING OFF TO SLEEP::::

DID SOMEONE SAY CHICKEN......I'M STARVED AND NOT THE LEAST BIT WORRIED BOUT OLD REAGAN.....93??? IT WAS TIME FOR HIM TO BITE THE DUST ANYWAY......

OHHHH COOKIES......

:::WALKS AWAY::

[TonyB06]

Originally posted by Ideal08
How is this any different from what Russ Parr and his cronies said the other day? I don't understand why there are certain things people are not allowed to have opinions about. Now, just because the man is dead, people have to hold in "negative" opinions? I love how freedom of speech only works when speaking in favor of the status quo. A lot of what this kid said is the truth. But that all gets swept under the rug because it's seen as being in bad taste? When do people get to talk about all the jacked up stuff that this man did? How long does he have to be dead before it's talked about? Or is it protocol that after someone dies, you don't say anything negative about them? Does death erase wrong doings? Maybe I'm in a bad mood today, but WHO CARES??

SO WHAT?

I think what you were seeing was/is political civility. While history will have plenty of time to lay out its case for/against Mr. Reagan, it was just nice to refrain from all of that till they buried him. It's kind of like (at least it used to be in the south from what I'm told) when a funeral procession went by you stopped --whether you were in the procession or not.

This "procession" just went on a week nationally and was carried by CNN, et.al. The thing that mesmerized me was the military percision, especially that sort of half walk, have gait thing that the soldiers had when approaching/leaving the coffin. That was tight. Dude's riderless boots on the horse was touching, as well.

I also thought his son's remarks at the California burial service were particularly poignant, leaving aside political opinions about the man. Like it or not, elements of it were political stagecraft writ large.

[lovelyivy84]

Well last time I was in a church, the fan had black Jesus. But it was an Episcopalian church, lol.


Anybody else got that one?

Originally posted by TonyB06
It's just another of the traditional links in our worship experiences, despite the geographical/denominational differences, that's fun to reminisice about.

Like ...remember when your church had joint afternoon services w/another church and after the official welcome from the host church, someone from your church would rise in response and say "thank ya for the kind, kind words of welcome. On behalf of the __________ Baptist Chuch, we felt yalls welcome when we came though the door...."

(that and the fact we wuz filled up on the hotwater cornbread they served at the dinner in the church basement before service started )

...ain't nothin' like the way we do it.

[Monique]

I mean true enough, this man has done alot of F*@#ED up things in his life but some of the comments i heard were rather mean . I mean this was someone husband,grandfather,uncle, dad! Did yall happen to peep the way Nancy was acting. When she was touching and kissing his coffin, I damn near broke down just like her . I mean talk about sad. Can you picture loving someone and being someones wife for that long and have them taken from you like that? Its a wonder she is not in the crazy house.

[MaMaBuddha]

alzheimers...such an evil disease.

reagan, i could care less about. don't remember him coming to my hood.

[abaici]

Lawd, I could barely contain myself in church yesterday! During morning services, I had to pass someone a Funeral church fan. While i was at another church later that evening, I bust into laughter when I peeped the fan with the little girl with praying hands.

[aurora_borealis]

Originally posted by abaici
Lawd, I could barely contain myself in church yesterday! During morning services, I had to pass someone a Funeral church fan. While i was at another church later that evening, I bust into laughter when I peeped the fan with the little girl with praying hands.

We had the heat on in church yesterday morning

On Easter Morning after staying up ALL NIGHT we worship in a church with no electricity or heat. People still wouldn't sit up front though

Good thing the Lutherans around here are mostly Scandinavian, we can take it!

[BirthaBlue4]

Originally posted by Monique
I mean true enough, this man has done alot of F*@#ED up things in his life but some of the comments i heard were rather mean . I mean this was someone husband,grandfather,uncle, dad!

Right. He sucked as a politician, as far as his domestic policies, but he was human and his family loved him. And Nancy will not be the same without him. You can talk about the triflin things he did in office, but no one should ever celebrate someone's death with glee in a negative way. Would you like folks to do that to you if you did something they didn't like? I heard on...92.3 I think, they were "talking" to Reagan from "heaven". I thought it was a little too soon for that, being as though he wasn't in the ground yet at the time. Its ok to make jokes, but at least let them get the man in the ground first.

That's basic human respect, it shouldn't be personal.

[Love_Spell_6]

Originally posted by BirthaBlue4
Right. He sucked as a politician, as far as his domestic policies, but he was human and his family loved him. And Nancy will not be the same without him. You can talk about the triflin things he did in office, but no one should ever celebrate someone's death with glee in a negative way. Would you like folks to do that to you if you did something they didn't like? I heard on...92.3 I think, they were "talking" to Reagan from "heaven". I thought it was a little too soon for that, being as though he wasn't in the ground yet at the time. Its ok to make jokes, but at least let them get the man in the ground first.

That's basic human respect, it shouldn't be personal.

This is a great post. Not only because I agree with you (though that helps )but because I think it says alot about a person that finds joy/humor in someone's death.

[Sistermadly]

http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-liv...7684799.column

From the article:
"Charles' African-American face, his musical roots in black struggle, his very blindness all seemed to serve as reminders of something missing in the many hours of pious commentary about the 40th president's vision of America.

That face - the gleeful, grinning, shaded Charles - seemed as if it had cut into the tributes like a jazzy, boat-rocking riff inside a staid old hymn.

And what it seemed to say was exactly what nobody else wanted to say - that black people and their concerns did not exist for Ronald Reagan.

Amen, Mr. Charles."

[Steeltrap]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-liv...7684799.column

From the article:
"Charles' African-American face, his musical roots in black struggle, his very blindness all seemed to serve as reminders of something missing in the many hours of pious commentary about the 40th president's vision of America.

That face - the gleeful, grinning, shaded Charles - seemed as if it had cut into the tributes like a jazzy, boat-rocking riff inside a staid old hymn.

And what it seemed to say was exactly what nobody else wanted to say - that black people and their concerns did not exist for Ronald Reagan.

Amen, Mr. Charles."

Great column. I wonder if Mr. Vitello will get hate mail from the apologists. I hope not.