Wake Forest Chi Omegas Relinquish their charter

[DeltAlum]

From the NT Fraternity thread:

"Five of the 13 active fraternities at NT have been suspended in the last three years for heavy drinking or hazing."

Damn. Wake up! That's a really bad situation. Read the story.

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=39272

[33girl]

I don't know what the above post has to do with Wake Forest...there was nothing said about heavy drinking or hazing re the Chi Omega chapter. And they turned in their charter, it was not taken.

I know I am guilty too but can we please stay on topic?? If people want to read a thread that's right below this one they will without being ordered to.

[DeltAlum]

You're right. It has nothing to do with Wake. It does, however, address some topics that have been discussed in this thread like hazing, underage drinking and other Risk Management problems.

[33girl]

I haven't seen ANYTHING regarding hazing, and I think it is a disservice to the women of this chapter to associate their name with something they haven't been found guilty of.

not only that, THE THREAD IS RIGHT BELOW THIS ONE.

[GeekyPenguin]

You know what - I am not saying my chapter breaks rules. We don't. We don't agree with them, but we follow them, and because of this, most of the fraternities on campus won't mix with us.

It's okay to say we don't like national policies, maybe some of you need to wake up and realize THAT. If nobody ever spoke out against rules, we'd still be WASPs. Do I realize the rules aren't going to change? Yes. Am I still going to encourage the girls to follow them? Yes. Do I still dislike them? Yes.

[Senusret I]

I'm a little bothered by those making this into a grad/undergrad thing....now is not the time to point the finger at the students.

I think we forget that just because the organizations are 100 odd years old, and we've all been around the mulberry bush about these issues for decades, that doesn't mean that the collegiate members have the same understanding that alumni/ae members do.

I mean, college is the time to make mistakes, in a sense.

So I dunno....let's not take out our frustrations on "collegiates"......it's not like they created the system -- they inheireted it.

I hope that made sense.

[shadokat]

I don't take my frustrations out on collegians. I just don't see the value in not living in the house because you can't have alcohol there. I lived in for 3 years, and never felt the need to drink there. If we wanted to drink before going to the bars, we went to an off-campus apartment of a friend or other sister.

I think, given the choice of having a sorority house or being able to have alcohol in our residence, the house would win hands down. It's a PLUS of being a sorority member. That house is the hub of sorority activities, as well as the home of the chapter. I can't imagine not having a house where everyone congregates, has meetings, eats dinner, etc. The one thing we didn't do there was party. #1, it wasn't allowed, but honestly, #2, we didn't want our house to look like the disgusting fraternity houses and some of the local sorority houses who did host parties. And we didn't suffer in terms of recruiting members to live in either.

[33girl]

Heather, he didn't mean you LOL.

rocket, why did you edit that? It was a good post...I got it.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by 33girl
I haven't seen ANYTHING regarding hazing, and I think it is a disservice to the women of this chapter to associate their name with something they haven't been found guilty of.

not only that, THE THREAD IS RIGHT BELOW THIS ONE.

From the original link:

"We have also, unfortunately, held early morning meetings to teach our pledges the history of Fideles and continue to pass down pigs along with owls (pigs: fideles mascot, owl: chi omega mascot.) We have continued Fidele sisterhood traditions behind closed doors. We not innocent, but we’re only college students and we’re a big group that is absolutely obsessed with one another and tends to get carried away."

Also, Meagan mentions that one of the alleged "charges" against them had to do with hazing.

And, the thread will move, depending on who posts and when. When I posted, it was above this one.

Sorry you're upset, but the thread had already veered off course. I think, while my post had nothing specific to do with the situation at Wake, it does ad information germain to some of the other posts on the thread. Specifically those regarding alcohol, hazing, breaking or following the rules, attitudes, etc.

Edited to add: The "hazing" mentioned (early morning meetings, etc.) are a part of the hazing laws/rules that I, personally, find fairly dumb. I doubt that a meeting is going to taint anyone for life or threaten their health or wellbeing. But, they are part of the rules -- and were broken.

Which follows the conversation about having to follow the rules whether the make any sense or not.

Which, in my mind at least, follows the general meandering of the thread. The topic has/had gotten larger than the original post -- as threads tend to do on GC.

I feel badly for this particular group of women and hope that they can resolve their differences, one way or another, to their greater benefit. However, I do worry about the attitudes that have been brought to light by many regarding breaking the rules.

[33girl]

oh my God, they passed a pig!!!! heavens to mergetroid!!!!!!

and the key word is alleged, alleged, alleged. from the posting in her journal, it sounded like they were taking anything anyone said and stretching it to get it to sound like hazing took place.

if you want people to read a thread, bump it up to the top rather than posting it in every other thread. You know I respect your years of service to DTD and Greek life - but bashing people over the head with something doesn't make them listen, it makes their head hurt.

[sugar and spice]

Whoa, I've got a lot of stuff to respond to and I don't want anyone to accuse me of boring them to death so I'm going to break it up a little.

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
Wow. I'm definatly going to have to agree with Dee on this one and say that I'm disappointed with some of the things that have been said so far.

So far:


*Let's stop kidding ourselves that sisterhood and brotherhood is something that has to be sealed in a ritual before it "counts."
*As we're reminded by so many GDIs, they can make friends on their own, and they don't need to pay for it.
*But the fact is that our biggest draw, as social organizations, are people who like to be social -- and as you pointed out, in the college environment, alcohol tends to be present as a social lubricant.
*I've thought a lot about alcohol free housing, and I hate it. For me, it wasn't an issue, because I was underage the entire time I lived in our house.

just to name a few.

Good lord. Is this really what y'all think about your sisterhood, about the greek system overall? Is this what you want to present to potential new members reading this board TODAY?

Point number one: Ritual does not make brother and sisterhood. Trust, respect, friendship, loyalty -- that is the stuff that forms bonds, and you can get that outside of fraternities and sororities. By saying otherwise, you're implying that any friendships that are formed outside of the Greek system "don't count" -- how invalidating is that? Hmmm, it's no wonder that GDIs claim we're elitist. I would too if anybody told me that my friendships with Sarah and Erin and Nicole aren't worth as much as my friendships with Janelle and Amy and Lauren, just because the former haven't been dressed in white and sworn into "the sacred bonds of Tri Delta."

Point number two: I was simply pointing out the fact that friendship is something that people can get outside of GLOs, so if friendship was their only reason for belonging, as some people were trying to argue, why pay a thousand bucks a year for it? I'm not arguing that there aren't benefits that GLOs provide that you can't get elsewhere, but friendship isn't one.

Point number three: I don't even see how this point is arguable. We're social organizations -- not arguable. We tend to attract people who like being social (otherwise why would they join?) -- not arguable. And in college, alcohol tends to be present as a social lubricant -- again, not arguable.

Point number four: Again, if you take this post in context, it makes perfect sense. Why should a house that is not owned by the university or the sorority, not on university property, and inhabited by seven 21-year-olds and a non-drinker be alcohol free? Aside from the whole lawsuit thing, of course?

Not to mention that every single one of those points were taken out of context and thus the meaning was twisted.

I want to present an ACCURATE picture of the Greek system to PNMs. I don't think y'all realize how much credibility we lose when we say things like "Greeks don't party that much" or "The formal rush system isn't superficial" or "My organization does not haze." Intelligent people can see through the BS. They see that sorority girls are over at Sig Ep and Sigma Chi and the bars two or three or five nights a week. They see that plain girls are cut harder than pretty ones. They read newspaper articles about the Penn State Tri Delts being on social probation for hazing -- and then we look like idiots or liars, neither of which is good. We would be taken much more seriously if we could just learn to say "Yes, as social organizations, we do party and we do drink, but we also do more volunteer work than non-Greeks and the all-sorority GPA is higher than the non-Greek women's GPA." Or "Yes, your looks might come into play during rush, but conversation, activities and grades are more important." Or "The Mu chapter of Delta Delta Delta does not haze." All of those are true and yet still put a positive spin on things.

As Sheila said in a PM to me (I hope you don't mind that I'm sharing this!) "I think the reason more intelligent people don't pledge is the hypocrisy." People don't want to be lied to. They don't want to be treated like they're stupid. And when you tell them things that they can see are clearly false, they feel like you think they're stupid. Nobody wants to be a part of an organization that makes you feel like that.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
before somebody nails me to a wall --

I realize those statements were taken out of context. At the same time -- what're y'all THINKING?! If you joined your group to drink and party, you're on the wrong website.

(1) You're making assumptions that the reasons stated that SOME PEOPLE join the Greek system were those of the people posting them. I certainly didn't join the Greek system to drink (I had enough friends who are 21 that I could do it for cheaper elsewhere), but I have to admit that the social calendar was part of it.

(2) Last I checked, GC was a website for Greeks. Not a website for Greeks-who-joined-the-system-for-completely-non-selfish-reasons.

(3) As 33girl said, don't make assumptions about what kind of members people are just because their reasons for joining were not as pure as yours. I have plenty of sisters who joined just because they thought it would be "fun" -- yet they are awesome sisters and have gone onto become new member ed, president, rush chair, whatever, and done a great job of it.

(4) Why are so many people looking down at people who drink in this thread? Just because you don't do it doesn't mean that you're a better person than they are, which is a prevailing attitude in this thread (or at least, it's coming off that way). And if you DO drink in college, or did, then what business do you have feeling superior to those who do the same thing?

And before I forget, props to AllisonDG and justamom -- Allison for backing me up, even if she's too afraid to post and JAM for donating to St. Jude's, which is a wonderful, wonderful cause and deserves every cent of it.



(edited because 5 doesn't come after 3)

[damasa]

Whether a lot of people want to admit it or not, some individuals to decide to rush or pledge a certain "social org" because they want an outlet to alcohol, parties and the opposite/same sex. You do not have to agree with it because the simple fact is that it's true. Of course as we grow older and move along in our college years we start to realize that there is more to being greek than just booze and sex. We realize that there is a deeper sense of brotherhood, there is a deeper sense of honor and giving back to the community. But I will happily say that most people that decide to rush an org are not doing it because of "study hours, philanthropy events, etc."

I know I wasn't when I first decided to rush but all of those things grew on me the more I got involved and the more I started to understand the greek system. I've also read a lot of those comments from what I assume are older greeks on GC. I will stand by my statement that "times change" and boy do they ever. It is not exactly like college when you were there, things are different, people have changed, our society has changed, whether it's something you accept or not.

Now we move onto the issue of "declining greek life." I'm going to relate this more to sororites and fraternites that are "dry." Of course we should take pride in our organizations and we should obey all the rules set by our national organizations. So why are greek numbers declining? I don't think it has much to do with hazing or risk management. I think it is because more people are starting to look at "social glos" as being more of a hassle than help. Let's face it, many "social glos" have lost just about all meaning of the word "social" and maybe it's time they start to classify themselves as something other than "social."

We'll use a young college woman named sue. Sue just recently turned 21 and she is living in her sorority house for the year. Sue is kind of down because she can't drink in her house. Sue is alos down because her boyfriend of two years can't spend the night, let alone, even be allowed to see her room, or be in the house without being escorted by her.

Now I know these are all rules governed and set by the national, but why should Sue do it? Why should Sue pay $3,000 a semester/year to live in-house while not having hardly any "freedoms" at all? Why do it when another young lady her age is living in an apt or dorm across the way, is able to drink or have alcohol in her apt whenever she pleases, is allowed to have small parties and her boyfriend can stay over whenever she wants. We are all young adults in college, just experiencing our first few years of freedom, most sorority girls I know feel they don't have such freedoms while living in the house (and I feel for those that are required to live in-house for at least one year).

In essence, it's like "Sue" is paying a lot more money than your average college student, so she can belong to a "social glo" but she has almost lost more "freedom" by doing so. I won't even get into the whole debate about having more than so and so members at a function being a liability. That is just more of a hassle for people not being allowed to hang out and drink with their brother/sisters outside of the house because it can be considered a "sponsored event." I mean hell, they can't even socialize with a group of their members anymore, so what's the point? Why do these individuals continue to pay the money?

These are questions that arise, and to be honest I feel that many of these issues are almost directly related to the declining number of glo members.

Again, times change and if national/international offices don't start to recognize and/or do something about these issues, I see a number of national/international glos closing in the future.

woo woo.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by 33girl
oh my God, they passed a pig!!!! heavens to mergetroid!!!!!!

and the key word is alleged, alleged, alleged. from the posting in her journal, it sounded like they were taking anything anyone said and stretching it to get it to sound like hazing took place.

if you want people to read a thread, bump it up to the top rather than posting it in every other thread. You know I respect your years of service to DTD and Greek life - but bashing people over the head with something doesn't make them listen, it makes their head hurt.

Give me a break, 33.

I don't care about passing a pig. Meagan mentioned forced early morning meetings and other things "behind closed doors."

And I already said that I don't think that's such a bad thing -- but it is against the rules.

I believe even I used the word "alleged" in my post, didn't I?

Let's not beg the question here. The thing that I take issue with is not so much what the chapter did (by admission), but the attitude that they knew it was wrong, went ahead and did it, and said they would do it again. Organizations cannot survive by anarchy -- which is what happens if little pieces of the organization are allowed to only selectively follow the rules and guidelines.

And, yet again, I don't know that I would agree, in a global sense, that anything the did was so bad. But the things are against the rules or the law -- and they broke them.

[33girl]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
The thing that I take issue with is not so much what the chapter did (by admission), but the attitude that they knew it was wrong, went ahead and did it, and said they would do it again. Organizations cannot survive by anarchy -- which is what happens if little pieces of the organization are allowed to only selectively follow the rules and guidelines.

I'll state again that it sounds like the guidelines the colonizing sisters had were "fuzzy" to begin with, and that they were given too much leeway as far as continuing local traditions. In the immortal words of Barney Fife, "Nip it in the bud!" If they had been more firm in the beginning, the ties to the society may have subsided earlier, and they would have felt more tied to Chi O (and ergo, more respectful of the rules). Of course, a lot of this is a campus culture thing that is hard for anyone who doesn't go there to understand - the same way some GC members find it hard to wrap their heads around the idea of a local sorority since they don't have them at their school.