School Shooting Newtown CT

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I know our first instinct is "We must find a way to stop this" but (as pessimistic as this is going to sound), I don't see any way to prevent this type of incident.

That may be our first instinct, but it's the wrong question, I think. You're right that we can never "stop" things like this. The better question is "are we doing all we can to prevent these incidents from happening."

Originally Posted by Kevin

I hate that we're all still seriously talking about this "need" of reform. We don't need to do jack squat. At least not immediately. Laws made directly in the wake of emotional events typically aren't well thought out or even needed.

I don't know about that. I think history just might support the idea that sometimes those emotional events are what prompt people in power into actually doing something. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory was a direct catalyst for workplace safety laws. The Selma to Montgomery marches, and particularly the violence in Selma, was a catalyst for the passage of the Voting Rights Act (which LBJ sent to Congress just ten days after Selma).

I agree that haste isn't advisable. But the truth is that there is a window in which discussion are more likely to happen. Strike will the iron is hot and all.

These types of shootings are becoming more rare, not more common . . . .

What this means may be a matter of perspective. I agree that the evidence seems to show that mass killings overall have been in decline in recent years. But just in 2012, we've had Aurora, Oak Creek, WI, Minneapolis and now Newtown. To me, that means (1) they're not rare enough and (2) we're not doing all we can to reduce them more.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't know about that. I think history just might support the idea that sometimes those emotional events are what prompt people in power into actually doing something. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory was a direct catalyst for workplace safety laws. The Selma to Montgomery marches, and particularly the violence in Selma, was a catalyst for the passage of the Voting Rights Act (which LBJ sent to Congress just ten days after Selma).

It's a matter of perspective, but comparing the Shirtwaist Factory or the incidents in the South during the civil rights era isn't a very apt comparison. Consider that while not routine, school shootings are something which have reoccurred many times going back to colonial times (of course these days, our deaths are not usually caused by marauding native war bands). While tragic, this has happened before many many times and regardless of what laws you pass, it'll happen again.

If you're going to consider new legislation, there needs to be a weighing of cost vs. benefit. There's a strong argument to be made that finding any benefit whatsoever is tricky to impossible.

Strike will the iron is hot and all.

Exploiting tragedy to score political points.

What this means may be a matter of perspective. I agree that the evidence seems to show that mass killings overall have been in decline in recent years. But just in 2012, we've had Aurora, Oak Creek, WI, Minneapolis and now Newtown. To me, that means (1) they're not rare enough and (2) we're not doing all we can to reduce them more.

It's not disputable that 2012 has been an exceptionally bad year, but it is nowhere close to what we used to see 20 years ago. We passed gun legislation back then. How many deaths were prevented by the Clinton "assault weapons" ban?

[ZTAngel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Not much of an article really, just a BS emotional appeal from someone who was shot by a total sociopath. Of course there's not one single thing he proposed which would have prevented that crazy SOB from walking up that driveway and shooting him and his wife and his friend.

I hate that we're all still seriously talking about this "need" of reform. We don't need to do jack squat. At least not immediately. Laws made directly in the wake of emotional events typically aren't well thought out or even needed.

These types of shootings are becoming more rare, not more common and saying that the NRA has blood on its hands is just silly.

So, basically, you're saying let's not do anything at all to at least try to prevent these types of things from happening? I know you always like to play devil's advocate, but I think you're being completely abrasive and insensitive. What happened on Friday is a huge tragedy....probably bigger than anything we've seen in years in that 20 innocent children are being loaded into tiny little coffins. Luckily, it seems the majority of people disagree with you. Politicians who once received high ratings from the NRA are coming around to the idea of serious reform. Will it prevent these instances from happening every single time? No. But it hopefully will make it a little more difficult for a maniac to commit this type of crime. I don't understand how anyone could advocate not doing anything at all just because it won't prevent every instance.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ZTAngel

So, basically, you're saying let's not do anything at all to at least try to prevent these types of things from happening? I know you always like to play devil's advocate, but I think you're being completely abrasive and insensitive.

You should look at my location indicator and know that I have some personal experience in this area. I drive by the OKC bombing memorial several times a day, office 3-4 blocks as the crow flies from there and actually heard and felt that blast, not to mention knowing some of the victims. My heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy, but I'm not going to support emotional legislation because that's what some think is apparently the sensitive and non-abrasive thing to do. For the record, I think the rulemaking going on right now with regard to ammonium nitrate sales is ridiculous.

What happened on Friday is a huge tragedy....probably bigger than anything we've seen in years in that 20 innocent children are being loaded into tiny little coffins. Luckily, it seems the majority of people disagree with you. Politicians who once received high ratings from the NRA are coming around to the idea of serious reform.

Define "serious" reform. In my memory, every reform we've had over recent years has been an expansion of gun rights and every "serious" reform as noted by MC, was worked around by the gun industry so quickly that its effect was negligible.

Will it prevent these instances from happening every single time? No. But it hopefully will make it a little more difficult for a maniac to commit this type of crime. I don't understand how anyone could advocate not doing anything at all just because it won't prevent every instance.

Okay, let's look at this case, what law would prevent someone from stealing weapons from their mother who lawfully possessed those weapons? The SOB broke multiple laws doing what he did. That really didn't seem to matter much to him.

In reality, any sort of restrictions are going to make it harder on that family in some rural Oklahoma county from being able to defend itself when someone is trying to break in through the back door at 3 in the morning.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Those of you on the East and West coast probably don't really understand. You call 911 and typically, if it's a real emergency, you don't have to wait very long for the police to arrive.

Out here in the sticks, it's quite a bit different. Even if you live in a fairly dense place like Oklahoma County, if you live in an unincorporated part of the county or in a town which doesn't have the money for its own police station (we have those) a sheriff could be a good couple of hours away--more if he's otherwise occupied when you call. That's not much comfort when someone is trying to kick in your back door and your nearest neighbor is a half-mile away.

I just now saw this, and I completely agree.

As someone who has lived out in the country her entire life (except when I'm away at school), it's very comforting to know that my father has firearms that could protect us if someone were to break in to our home. People are vulnerable out in the middle of nowhere. It's an easy way for a criminal to try and commit a robbery without being noticed by passerbys, and calling 911 won't do much good when we have one sheriff for our entire county on duty at a time.

This is something that people who think nobody should ever possess a gun simply don't understand. Some people are responsible for their own safety.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

I just now saw this, and I completely agree.

As someone who has lived out in the country her entire life (except when I'm away at school), it's very comforting to know that my father has firearms that could protect us if someone were to break in to our home. People are vulnerable out in the middle of nowhere. It's an easy way for a criminal to try and commit a robbery without being noticed by passerbys, and calling 911 won't do much good when we have one sheriff for our entire county on duty at a time.

This is something that people who think nobody should ever possess a gun simply don't understand. Some people are responsible for their own safety.

I grew up in such an area, and never felt that firearms were a solution. Stuff can be replaced. People die.

[TPA85]

I just came across this "how to help Newtown" page on abc7. Sharing for anyone who's interested.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...rbs&id=8923497

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

I completely agree. However, if criminals knew that schools had security guards or something of the like, maybe it would stop them from trying to shoot up schools. Criminals pick security free zones to commit crimes because everyone is defenseless.

Most of the criminals in school shootings have been active students with an ax to grind. We don't know why the Newtown shooter did this. I read that he destroyed all of the computers in the house so they have forensics specialists retrieving data to see if there is any clue to motive there. We may never know, but I suspect strongly, in this case, if there had been a security guard, the guard just would have been the first one shot.

This is pretty sombering but I found this list:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by TPA85

I just came across this "how to help Newtown" page on abc7. Sharing for anyone who's interested.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?se...rbs&id=8923497

Thank you so much for sharing this.

The following was posted by Pema Chodron, quoting her own teacher Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche, in response to Sandy Hook:

Dear friends - I'm deeply saddened by the recent tragedy in Connecticut. My teacher Dzigar Kongtrul Rinpoche expressed my own sentiments perfectly, so I'd like to share them with you:

"This is the most incomprehensible tragedy of insanity. There is no way to even begin to understand what has happened. We can only sit with the overwhelming sadness and loss of the innocent. The guardian of humanity could not have to face anything more grave than losing the young unopened buds that were on their way to bloom. We pray that some relief may come in this time of loss and to the broken hearts of the parents, family members, and our countrymen and women. This kind of tragedy is happening way too often in our country, where only a few miles away in Canada, it is a rare occurrence. I join my palms in prayer for America to find a positive resolution to this problem."

[ComradesTrue]

Moving away from the Gun Control debate for a moment to reflect back on the victims and survivors, and how their Greek affiliations are working to support them at this time.

Lauren Rousseau, a substitute teach at Sandy Hook, was a member of Pi Beta Phi (Connecticut Alpha chapter). A scholarship has been set up in her name through Pi Beta Phi Foundation. Donate here.

Kappa Kappa Gamma was affected in several ways. First, a Kappa lost a son in the tragedy. In addition, a surviving teacher at Sandy Hook is a Kappa. Finally, one of the teachers that was killed is the cousin of a Kappa husband. Kappa is collecting condolence cards for these families, info here.

Finally, a member of Beta Theta Pi lost his precious 6 year old daughter, Caroline. His chapter brothers are working to raise $100,000 to endow a Beta scholarship in little Caroline's name. Info here.

There may be more Greek connections than just these three, and my apologies for any unintended omissions. I learned of these through T_witter.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by Blondie93

Moving away from the Gun Control debate for a moment to reflect back on the victims and survivors, and how their Greek affiliations are working to support them at this time.

Lauren Rousseau, a substitute teach at Sandy Hook, was a member of Pi Beta Phi (Connecticut Alpha chapter). A scholarship has been set up in her name through Pi Beta Phi Foundation. Donate here.

Kappa Kappa Gamma was affected in several ways. First, a Kappa lost a son in the tragedy. In addition, a surviving teacher at Sandy Hook is a Kappa. Finally, one of the teachers that was killed is the cousin of a Kappa husband. Kappa is collecting condolence cards, info here.

Finally, a member of Beta Theta Pi lost his precious 6 year old daughter, Caroline. His chapter brothers are working to raise $100,000 to endow a Beta scholarship in little Caroline's name. Info here.

There may be more Greek connections than just these three, and my apologies for any unintended omissions. I learned of these through T_witter.

Delta Chi alumnus Dean Pinto's son Jack was killed as well. Jack idolized NY Giant Victor Cruz who put Jack's name on his cleats and gloves: http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/12/17/...ewtown-victim/

Press release from University of New Haven: http://www.newhaven.edu/485194/

[groovypq]

One of my husband's coworkers is a Newtown native. He drove home Friday night, feeling the need to be home. He shares his thoughts in today's paper: http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/com...ries-1.1418060

[SydneyK]

I'll readily admit that I'm not very well-versed in all things gun related, so this may be a silly question...

I thought I heard something on the news about Adam attempting to purchase a gun, but being denied. When that happens, is there any kind of communication required to take place between the gun store and some kind of officials? I mean, if a guy attempts to buy a gun and is denied, does the store notify local police of the attempted purchase?

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I'll readily admit that I'm not very well-versed in all things gun related, so this may be a silly question...

I thought I heard something on the news about Adam attempting to purchase a gun, but being denied. When that happens, is there any kind of communication required to take place between the gun store and some kind of officials? I mean, if a guy attempts to buy a gun and is denied, does the store notify local police of the attempted purchase?

Yes the FBI and ATF have access to the application records of anyone attempting to purchase a firearm in this country. As far as I know there is two week waiting period in CT to purchase a firearm. That is so the background check and application to purchase a firearm can be processed. This douche shouldn't have been able to buy a firearm because he was only 20 BUT he tried to purchase it with his older brothers ID. There's not much reporting on why he was denied on the spot.. maybe the store owner realized he was using a fake ID or the guy seemed "off".

I don't think we should arm teachers but I don't see why more school districts don't have their own uniformed police force or at least one or two armed guards patrolling the grounds. Funding shouldn't be an issue either; If we can pull $10 billion dollars out of our ass to buy fighter jets for Egypt and Libya we should be able to afford security to our own citizens.

[AOII Angel]

Kevin, the problem with your statistics is that they only take into account school violence, but most of the mass shootings this year and last have not been at schools but at malls, homes, places of worship and other non-school related locals.