balanced man vs traditional

[FRATMOSPHERE]

Fraternities are about power, period. If joining a chapter gives you an advantage over everyone else on your campus then it shouldn't matter whether it's traditional or BMP. However, in what I've seen the BMP chapters have been more like clubs where the losers go to think they stand for something.

[sfebop]

Hey Bros,
I want to start off by saying I'm from a traditional chapter. I went to conclave last summer and CLA's this fall (Pittsburgh). A lot of the guys at my chapter HATE and I mean HATE the Balanced Man Program, and I'll admit before conclave I was in full agreement. But the truth is every chapter is going to be different regardless. I met BM guys at both Conclave and CLA's that could hang longer then I could, and had great personalities. The problem seems to be that there are a lot of chapters that don't really care who they let in, which can be both a good and bad thing. If a irresponsible chapter lets in irresponsible brothers, well, they loose their charter. However, if BM chapters let in guys that are only doing it for their resume and "Fuck It, I didn't have to pledge" (it's in quotations because some at Conclave actually said that to me); they get rewarded for having high numbers.

From a personal standpoint though, I really like being a pledging chapter; here’s why. Over the 8 weeks that I pledged I got really close with my pledge brothers, we got to know each other and constantly had to depend on one another. There wasn't a moment that we weren't together, not by force, but because after 2 weeks, we genuinely really liked each other. Now that we're in we are always functioning as "one" unit. To me, that is truly amazing, especially considering none of us knew each other beforehand. I can't see how this type of bonding can be re-created through the BMP. Really "hazing" is such a harsh word. I never once felt like I was "hazed", everything I did was done not because I liked the brothers, but rather because I loved my pledge brothers, and once we all shared a common trust, we realized how the guys already in felt. I don’t know, sounds a bit gay, whatever, that’s my only gripe with the BMP.

Fraternally.
Tom

[SigEpBrother2K8]

Originally Posted by sfebop

Hey Bros,
I want to start off by saying I'm from a traditional chapter. I went to conclave last summer and CLA's this fall (Pittsburgh). A lot of the guys at my chapter HATE and I mean HATE the Balanced Man Program, and I'll admit before conclave I was in full agreement. But the truth is every chapter is going to be different regardless. I met BM guys at both Conclave and CLA's that could hang longer then I could, and had great personalities. The problem seems to be that there are a lot of chapters that don't really care who they let in, which can be both a good and bad thing. If a irresponsible chapter lets in irresponsible brothers, well, they loose their charter. However, if BM chapters let in guys that are only doing it for their resume and "Fuck It, I didn't have to pledge" (it's in quotations because some at Conclave actually said that to me); they get rewarded for having high numbers.

From a personal standpoint though, I really like being a pledging chapter; here’s why. Over the 8 weeks that I pledged I got really close with my pledge brothers, we got to know each other and constantly had to depend on one another. There wasn't a moment that we weren't together, not by force, but because after 2 weeks, we genuinely really liked each other. Now that we're in we are always functioning as "one" unit. To me, that is truly amazing, especially considering none of us knew each other beforehand. I can't see how this type of bonding can be re-created through the BMP. Really "hazing" is such a harsh word. I never once felt like I was "hazed", everything I did was done not because I liked the brothers, but rather because I loved my pledge brothers, and once we all shared a common trust, we realized how the guys already in felt. I don’t know, sounds a bit gay, whatever, that’s my only gripe with the BMP.

Fraternally.
Tom

Hey Brother Tom,

I'm from NV Alpha and we're a BM chapter. I have to disagree with you on both points you just made, reason being that the BMP is kind of like an ongoing pledging program. When done correctly it provides all the positives of pledging without the negatives such as hazing, etc. (You might have been OK with it, as I probably would have been as well, but hazing is hazing and the public/law doesn't look at it kindly. Neither does nationals.)
Also, instead of pledging for 8 weeks and your 100% in, you have to earn your way through the rites or passage (alongside the brothers from your class and under the guidance of the older brothers, which is extremely bonding, no homo.). This is a very long process, sometimes lasting years. Over this time the BMP has you do personally beneficial things to prove yourself, e.g. community service, written tests on chapter and national history, etc. Not sure if traditional chapters are that way but isn't proving yourself to the fraternity the definition of pledging?
As far as letting in guys that only want in for something to put on a resume, you will find that the BMP will weed out those guys just as well as pledging because the BMP requires constant input of time and energy to remain in the chapter, again I feel I must add, when done correctly.
A lot of guys have problems with the BMP because of the way that some chapters run the program. However, these chapters probably weren't doing it correctly. When ran well and as it was meant to be, the program is a great way to educate new members, bond brothers, weed out non-SigEps and is one of the biggest reasons SigEp is the leader among fraternities nationwide. It's what sets us apart from other fraternities and looks great to the public. Other fraternities are beginning to model themselves on our example with the BMP and copying is the greatest compliment. Plus nationals will love your chapter for it .
Case and point, when done correctly the BMP offers all the benefits of pledging without the negatives that might or might not be present but are associated with a pledge-based fraternity. Thanks Animal House .

In Brotherly Love,
Brother Nate Janning, NV Alpha

[scottydosnntkno]

I agree with Sigepbrother.

I'm from Mi Theta(Lawrence tech) and i agree that there is a reason many many fraternities nationwide are adopting and developing something similar to the BMP. Not only that, but there is a reason that over 75% of SigEp chapters have gone to it. It is better than the traditional program.

At EDGE this spring, it was obvious which chapters were BMP and which weren't. During the programs and speeches, the BMP chapters would be quiet and listening, while the traditional chapters would be talking amongst themselves and making noise and generally being distracting. It wasn't one chapter in general, it was the 3 traditional chapters as a whole. They all acted the same. The traditional chapters to us looked kiddish, like they had no respect.

At fall EDGE, i remember a conversation i had with another brother. He said that at their chapter, somewhere in Ohio i think, their main way of getting their name out was to have huge parties to get people to join. They didn't have any formal programs or events for rush, they didnt know what to do. Not only that, but they had trouble even getting their brothers to come to GB. Did i mention they were a traditional chapter? talking to the brothers from the traditional chapters, they act like the stereotypical fraternity. There is a reason that so many sigep chapters are BMP. its more what sigep is about. brotherhood.

I know personally that our chapter is one of the closest bonded chapters of any ive seen. We have what we call Sacred heart, which is right after phi ritual, our whole chapter travels for the week to another chapter to bond with their chapter, see what their about, and to show our new members that sigep is not just one chapter, one location, that it is national. last fall(07) we had 59 our of our 61 brothers attend. the other chapter was amazed that we could get almost 100% of our chapter to donate their weekend to our brotherhood. also, at spring sacred heart, i remember talking to the VP of comm for the chapter we were at(bradley U, illinois delta) and he was like i didnt think you guys really meant that you would come and bring all your guys. i was like whys that? he said because they would never be able to get their guys to do that, to take a whole weekend to go somewhere. Not only that, but our chapter doesn't have a house, so its even harder, because its not like you can say ok everyone in the house has to go or whatever, everyone either lives in dorms or commutes to school. when we were talking at CLA, he was like yea sure whatever you guys can come for the weekend, but he didnt believe us.

i think that the BMP chapters are better than traditional, and they have better bonds than other chapters. instead of being so bonded and close with just your pledge chapter, we are bonded with our chapter as a whole.

[scottydosnntkno]

Originally Posted by bowsandtoes

I did in fact read the whole post, however I saw the same points being made as every balanced man makes in defense of their chapters.

According to national's website you guys nurse a nice 3.0 gpa and chapter size is under 35. Maybe it has to do with the quality of the greek system there but those numbers aren't much to brag about.

our chapter currently has 66 actives with a 3.11 GPA. while gpa is not a measure of brotherhood, you also have to remember that we are here for school first, and SigEp second. GPA should be VERY important to every chapter. There is no excuse for a brother to have under a 3.0 gpa ever. anyone who can't at least pull a 3pt should not be a SigEp as far as I am concerned, anyone who puts a reasonable amount of time into school should at least get a 3.0.

[scottydosnntkno]

the reason we coudlnt get a house is because up until this year we were only a 31 man chapter. then last fall we got 30 new members. its kind of hard to support a house on 30 brothers.

we're currently in the process of getting a house hopefully. but with all our dealings with nationals it typically takes 4-6 years to get a house built, after all the fundraising required and such. they say it takes at least $2 million to build a house and have it insured and all the necessary furnishings and such. finding a big enough lot around our campus that is close is tough, since we are a private university located in a mainly business area just outside the city limits of detroit. one side of our campus is bordered by a highway, and the other side is the southfield civic center which is a comples of 6 25+ story buildings

[SigEpf07]

why does it matter is its bmp or traditional? we are brothers, period. we learn the same things, go through the same rituals, have the same values. how is this a problem?

[SigEp226]

So, I have been reading these forums for just about two weeks or so, and reading this thread it seems the biggest problem with the switch from traditional to balanced man is the fact that everyone feels like its hard to build a strong bond with the other members. Correct me if I'm wrong, there is a lot of material in this thread that I merely skimmed over.

First, let me introduce myself. I am a freshman at Northern Kentucky University, who joined SigEp three days after my orientation. I knew from talking to all the members that I would not fit in the other fraternities, and that this was the place for me. We also are a Balanced Man chapter, not a traditional. I just went through Sigma not too long ago, last week actually, and honestly... I have such a great bond with the rest of the brothers in my Sigma class, and the rest of the fraternity.

Talking to one of the older brothers one night during the first month of the fall semester, he said to me. "You know, brotherhood is not formed through ritual, events, mixers, or anything like that. It is always going to be done through random nights where you and some of the brothers are just hanging out, or through those nights of hell where your brothers will help you through it." That could not be more true. Whether you be in a traditional chapter, or a balanced man chapter, think of the nights where you truly formed a bond with other brothers in your pledge class, or your sigma class. Think of the night that you decided who your big brother was going to be. Where did you find that bond? I'm pretty sure its going to be a random story to be told about a random night, or perhaps a time where you had something to deal with and they helped you through.

I don't know, maybe what I am trying to say is not even being said, I have a massive headache right now. What i will say though, the bond that i have with the brothers in my Sigma class, and the rest of the brothers in my chapter could not be stronger. The nights we have spent together and the stories we have to share together is what formed that brotherhood i have with them. To add onto it, my brothers are the reason that I am probably still here right now. After joining in the summer, I ended up going through a very hard time, and even though i had just joined a couple weeks ago. They were there for me. All day. All night. If i needed someone to talk to, or somewhere to stay; they were there.

Now, as a new member, it saddens me to see people arguing saying that the traditional chapters are better then the balanced men chapters. We are all brothers, and all are representing the same values, that of which Sigma Phi Epsilon was based on. Whether a chapter is traditional or balanced man, it does not matter. One way is not better then another, because honestly we are all equal in the end. At least, that is what I have been told.

This is just my two cents... i don't know. You can say that through the balanced man program you don't build as much brotherhood, but I can honestly say that no matter what kind of chapter we are, this same brotherhood would have been built.

V.D.BL,
Brother Thomas
Kentucky SEC -- Soon to be Kentucky ETA

[southernspe]

I got my balls hazed and am damn proud of it. I've had plenty of BMP chapters come up to me at Carlsons and RUCK and ask how they can get the kind of brotherhood that we have at my chapter.

I heard from our RD that Bill Tragos thinks BMP turns men into a bunch of pussies.

[pshsx1]

I look at the other fraternities on my campus that pledge and compare them to my own chapter and see that the bond I have with all my brothers is way stronger than every other org on campus.

And I don't understand the point of intense hazing. Why should I be treated with lower than dirt receives and go to hell and back so I can pay to call a group of guys my brothers.

Personally, I love different aspects of pledging and the BMP. There's no RIGHT way, though, that's for sure.

[Silenus]

Originally Posted by TopSider

<snip> For instane, I met a group od SigEp's traveling through about a year ago, there were 6 of them, 3 were gay. I mean, seriously, is this what my fraternity is becoming across the country? Minorities, Gays, Low class white trash? It sickens me, and I am proud to be a Traditional Chapter and by the grace of God its in the South.

I'd be remiss if I didn't start by saying "Screw you". I was born and raised in the Heart of Dixie, third generation Southern SigEp - traditional - got a quality dose of "hazing with a purpose", was part of the exec board that took our brotherhood underground and off-campus when nationals kicked us out because we wouldn't submit to their Balanced Man bullshit, still talk to new brothers weekly and visit at least yearly. Oh yeah, and I can suck a dick better than all the sophomore sorority sluts you've hooked up with combined. If you got a problem with that, I suggest you look up the meaning of "brotherhood" one more time. The word "vagina" appears nowhere in its definition.

As for this whole Balanced Man v. traditional argument. I admit I have an instinctive distrust of the BMP. I come from a family of traditional SigEps and a proudly, indeed defiantly traditional chapter. Despite this, I understand the general argument that the more thoughtful BMPs make. While both programs have their advantages and disadvantages, in the end it comes down to how the individual chapter handles it. While that's doubtlessly in part true, my concern is one I haven't seen addressed so far: the value of tradition per se.

I joined a fraternity not just for the usual reasons - brotherhood, social opportunities, &c. - but because I saw value in the fraternity experience generally and the SigEp experience in particular. Part of that value comes from the abovementioned reasons, but a large part also comes from the unofficial traditions that have long been a part of fraternity culture. These range from traditions that everyone admires, such as standing up for brothers in even the toughest situations, to those that are no longer (officially) popular, like hazing. These traditions are precisely that, traditions. They were not ideas some sadist made up for pure joy of torturing teenagers. They developed organically over the course of a century or more and they have persisted because they are effective and have value. These are casualties of programs like BMP, and whatever the virtues of such programs it is pure hubris to believe that a committee-designed plan can ever fully replace such organic traditions.

George

[pshsx1]

Originally Posted by Silenus

...While both programs have their advantages and disadvantages, in the end it comes down to how the individual chapter handles it....

I joined a fraternity not just for the usual reasons - brotherhood, social opportunities, &c. - but because I saw value in the fraternity experience generally and the SigEp experience in particular. Part of that value comes from the abovementioned reasons, but a large part also comes from the unofficial traditions that have long been a part of fraternity culture. These range from traditions that everyone admires, such as standing up for brothers in even the toughest situations, to those that are no longer (officially) popular, like hazing. These traditions are precisely that, traditions. They were not ideas some sadist made up for pure joy of torturing teenagers. They developed organically over the course of a century or more and they have persisted because they are effective and have value. These are casualties of programs like BMP, and whatever the virtues of such programs it is pure hubris to believe that a committee-designed plan can ever fully replace such organic traditions.

I hate this thread so much... yet for some reason I'm posting again.

Here's the problem I have... you're talking about traditions that are effective and have value. Tell me where hazing falls into 'effective and valuable.' Pledging? Fine. Hazing? No. Keep in mind, hazing isn't "Traditional." When our fraternity was founded, Franklin Webb Kerfoot wasn't shit on by Benjamin Donald Gaw before he was allowed to wear SPE on his heart.
But I don't want you to think I don't understand what you're saying; I do. I'm just stating the above.

The BMP isn't designed to replace good traditions; it's designed to replace negative traditions (which results in fewer risk management issues), increase membership retention, and build better men.

But as you said, it all depends how a chapter handles it's program.

[Dr.Seuss]

Originally Posted by southernspe

I got my balls hazed and am damn proud of it. I've had plenty of BMP chapters come up to me at Carlsons and RUCK and ask how they can get the kind of brotherhood that we have at my chapter.

I heard from our RD that Bill Tragos thinks BMP turns men into a bunch of pussies.

Have you ever spoken to Bill Tragos? Cause I've been to RUCK, and I've been on the Quest, and it sure doesn't seem like he holds that opinion.

Who is / was your RD? I live right down the street from HQ, it'd be funny to ask him about it.

[tnalpha13]

Traditional fraternity allows the real FRATERNITY experience. We were founded on one main principle: Brotherly Love. This is not shown through the majority of BMPS. Traditional chapters allow brothers to become best friends through pledging. Pledging is what makes a fraternity in my opinion. It forms the pledges into a better man. BMPS do not allow this. They truly do not understand. Come to a traditional Sig Ep fraternity, and you will see the difference. I know all the brothers in my fraternity, and became close to them through my trials in pledging. A pledge in my chapter in my opinion is more a brother than "balance men" at other schools. This is based on the fact that these guys have to know the history of our fraternity, and they have to earn a spot to be called a Sig Ep. I do not like handing out bids left and right (and getting initiated on the spot) It can ruin a fraternity, because you let in guys that do not know why we have these princples founded by Ashton, Gaw, Phiilips, Carter, Wallace, Wright, and Jenkins. The reason I am upset about BM is because of that. I am a proud memeber of a traditional chapter, and when I see BM brothers at other schools. I have a hard time believing they earned the right to be called my brother, because they do not have any idea why I went through in order to be come a brother. Brotherhood is what Sig Ep needs. Not balance man.

[pshsx1]

Originally Posted by tnalpha13

Traditional fraternity allows the real FRATERNITY experience. We were founded on one main principle: Brotherly Love. This is not shown through the majority of BMPS. Traditional chapters allow brothers to become best friends through pledging. Pledging is what makes a fraternity in my opinion. It forms the pledges into a better man. BMPS do not allow this. They truly do not understand. Come to a traditional Sig Ep fraternity, and you will see the difference. I know all the brothers in my fraternity, and became close to them through my trials in pledging. A pledge in my chapter in my opinion is more a brother than "balance men" at other schools. This is based on the fact that these guys have to know the history of our fraternity, and they have to earn a spot to be called a Sig Ep. I do not like handing out bids left and right (and getting initiated on the spot) It can ruin a fraternity, because you let in guys that do not know why we have these princples founded by Ashton, Gaw, Phiilips, Carter, Wallace, Wright, and Jenkins. The reason I am upset about BM is because of that. I am a proud memeber of a traditional chapter, and when I see BM brothers at other schools. I have a hard time believing they earned the right to be called my brother, because they do not have any idea why I went through in order to be come a brother. Brotherhood is what Sig Ep needs. Not balance man.

Do you realize that when you're extended a bid in the BMP and become a member, you go through Sigma Ritual which is the equivalent of your pledge of intents. As the VP of Member Development of my chapter, I make sure that everyone earns their way into the heart of the Fraternity. No one is just going through the motions--not in my chapter. You didn't even get our 12 founding fathers right, so don't begin to tell anyone that BMP chapters don't learn the history. Also, although I didn't have a pledge class, I did have a Rush class and I depend on these guys more than anything. We've been through everything together. There are 7 of us left because the BMP actually weeded the other 11 out. Still, I know all of my active Brothers and a ton of alumni really, really well. Another thing, you said pledging turns the guys into better men. That right there is 100% the goal of THE BALANCED MAN PROGRAM. I've talked to guys from pledge model chapters and most of them do not live up to SigEp values. I will not discredit your pledging experience and I actually do wish I could have experienced pledging.

We don't just coast through the BMP. There are things we actually have to do just like pledges.