Lawmakers Find $21 a Week Doesn't Buy a Lot of Groceries

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Where did I say this? If anything, I would encourage you to use the blessings you have received to benefit others - not condemn you for having money/education/status/whatever. I asked if you had actually spoken to any of the people that we're talking about. Perhaps you could get involved with these folks in a service capacity. It's easy to talk negatively about people you don't know personally.

I never spoke negatively about them. I stated fact. It isn't that hard, there are opprtunities everywhere, and it isn't my fault if people don't take what is openly out there and available.

Why would I get involved with these folks in a service capacity? I am not a counselor or a homeless advocate or even a social worker. I would however be happy to, and have, help those who cannot help themselves. That again, is cannot, not will not.

All I can tell you is my sorry brother in law is 30 and never finished college because it was 'too stressful' and 'I can't afford it'. I told him everything I had done and how easy it was and he never took my help or advice. (BTW, there are 4 other sibling in the family and they all went to college on scholarship or loan) Now he whines about how it's so easy for the rest of us because we got our degrees and make more money than he does. We always have to spot him on family gifts, trips, etc. Give me a break.

But whose fault is it he didn't get his education? Mine? Yours? Guess again. It was his own darn fault. And the only reason I feel the need to help him out from time to time is because he is family.

Again, I am not talking about drug addiction. That is out of my realm of experience and knowledge.

My comments are directed specifically at people claiming they have no access to an education. Pure and simple. And I still say that is crap. If you want it, go and get it. I never made a mint, because I worked for a non-profit, but I paid my bills and fed myself. That's what I am talking about.

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by SmartBlondeGPhB

It's interesting how people's opinions on topics like these are shaped by their own life experiences. Those who've been there and gotten themselves out of it vs those who've had things handed to them by their parents and other people they know.

ITA. I wouldn't have posted the first word on this subject if I had a free ride from mommy and daddy. If that is your situation, great for you. You should appreciate it. I don't put anyone down for that. I wish mine had helped me more.

But I have worked my butt off and paid for my own education (and post-grad debt) and I know whereof I speak. I knew I had to do it, I made calls, asked questions, filled out paperwork. I can't understand why anyone would think someone else owes them that. That a load.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by Kevin

We ought not spend our hard earned money on folks who did not earn money in their lifetimes. Those people are wastes of oxygen in my opinion. I'll bet if we quit giving them $21/week in food stamps, they'd get jobs... or they'd die.

With all the suffering in the world, someone kicking off because they were too lazy to do the sort of work Americans won't do doesn't bother me so much.

Kevin--

Most of the time agree with you. But these statement. Can you be any more heartless and so hardened? Do you call yourself a Christian with your kind of thinking? Stewardship, Lovingkindness and Charity? These ideals are all parts of LOVE... We Christians are called to follow one last commandment to "love one another"... Who are you on that trail to Jericho?

You are turning your back on humanity. Another name it is called idolatry--attempting to be beyond the view of God. Fact is, in the course of life you NEVER KNOW if loss of everything including your mind and credibility can happen. Just ask Job, if you think it doesn't. And guess what, folks that lose everything think it would NEVER happen to them in a million years. So, it is prudent to show some humility and without prejudice. Because ultimately, you will die someday... And if you believe in God and Christ, then you will have to explain that dash in between your birthdate and death date.

Now, I know you support many wonderful things and several positive forces in your life have provided aspects in your life to bequeathed you with the degrees, knowledge and training for the career of your wildest dreams. You have been truly blessed to be in your position. However, many extremely impoverished people have criminal records. So, inevitably we, the taxpayers, wind up paying for them anyway... I would prefer remediation, with homeless assistance and education rather than prison anyday. It is cheaper in the longrun. And now the poor recividism from prison release without proper retraining has become a public health issue.

All people deserve dignity... That is a Geneva Convention under the world court. Overt starvation without the state's attempt to improve it is a human rights violation, moreover, it is tortuous for government agencies not to protect the dignity and rights of all its people within its borders.

With this, I will leave you with Langston Hughes poems:

Dream Deferred

What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore--
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over--
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sag
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?



Mother to Son

Well, son, I'll tell you:
Life for me ain't been no crystal stair.
It's had tacks in it,
And splinters,
And boards torn up,
And places with no carpet on the floor—
Bare.
But all the time
I'se been a-climbin' on,
And reachin' landin's,
And turnin' corners,
And sometimes goin' in the dark
Where there ain't been no light.
So, boy, don't you turn back.
Don't you set down on the steps.
'Cause you finds it's kinder hard.
Don't you fall now—
For I'se still goin', honey,
I'se still climbin',
And life for me ain't been no crystal stair.

[AKA_Monet]

JWithers--

Ever heard of the Prodigal Son?

Well, we former Deacons are asked to be of "sympathy" when we take an oath before God...

People hurt. Suffering is our lot in life. But as a Christian, I believe in hope for things unseen. Which means, I believe in hope in other people who "society" has deemed as failures. Without questions, without judgments, without discussion, I have been asked to trust and help people.

You cannot ask a bootless man, to lift himself up by his bootstraps... (MLK)

We can be better, hopeful and mindful of Love to Mankind.

Freely we serve, as freely we Love... As angels we climb to strive to our closeness to our Divinity...

Hey, if you are not about that, cool. And I will pray for you so that you gain understanding...

Lastly, Biblically, it does say, "Man does not live by Bread alone" and "I shall give you 'living water'"...

We not only have to feed people fish--we must teach them how to fish...

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

JWithers--

Ever heard of the Prodigal Son?

Well, we former Deacons are asked to be of "sympathy" when we take an oath before God...

People hurt. Suffering is our lot in life. But as a Christian, I believe in hope for things unseen. Which means, I believe in hope in other people who "society" has deemed as failures. Without questions, without judgments, without discussion, I have been asked to trust and help people.

You cannot ask a bootless man, to lift himself up by his bootstraps... (MLK)

We can be better, hopeful and mindful of Love to Mankind.

Freely we serve, as freely we Love... As angels we climb to strive to our closeness to our Divinity...

Hey, if you are not about that, cool. And I will pray for you so that you gain understanding...

Lastly, Biblically, it does say, "Man does not live by Bread alone" and "I shall give you 'living water'"...

We not only have to feed people fish--we must teach them how to fish...

OMG. All I said was that anyone can go to college. I never said let starving people starve. I never said let the homeless die. I never said get rid of welfare.(although it does need reform) Don't put words in my mouth.

I said that everyone has free access to an education. There is not some hidden code or hierarchy. You just apply for grants and scholarships and fill out your paperwork and you got to college.

And do not preach to me. I am a strong woman of faith and I do believe in Christ's commands that we love our neighbors as ourselves. I am active in my church and carry with me the fruits of the spirit everyday in a bracelet on my arm. One of which is self-control. You and only you are in charge of your destiny. God gives you whatever you begin with and it isn't always much. But He expects you to mkae the most of the gift of life and not blame others when you don't succeed.

I do NOT believe that someone has the right to point a finger at me and say "she didn't tell me how to get into college". I mean c'mon, if you haven't the gumption to fill out a few forms, then how can you say it's my fault you didn't go to college?????

My ONLY statement was in reference to education, and of course I did make an earlier statement earlier about the choice to have children out-of-wedlock and then find yourself alone to raise them.

It is all about choices. That's all I am saying. The Lord helps those that help themselves.

It is ridiculous to intimate that I am not a Christian because I think people should apply for their own college grants instead of giving up and saying they can't afford college becasue the world is against them.

If I have to repeat this one more time I'm gonna need a nap. College, College, College. Not food stamps, not welfare, not WIC.......

I said everyone can go to college if they really want to . Yeeash!!!

[KappaKittyCat]

Originally Posted by JWithers

There should be programs set up especially for women whose husbands leave them.... Women need to make wise choices and understand that they may one day HAVE to do it alone.

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but I just ran across a very interesting book called The Feminine Mistake (by Leslie Bennetts) that discusses this very issue. It talks about women who didn't work once they got married because they had a man to provide for them, and then something happened to their husbands (death or divorce) and they were left without the means to fend for themselves.

[preciousjeni]

I'm going to post this story again because it is valuable:

I was just talking with a coworker yesterday about poverty. She started out on welfare and was raising three children on her own. She didn't have enough money or time to get educated and had to make do with a low paying job and little funding from the government. She and those like her who have little education often make poor life decisions because they don't know what is available to them. It becomes oppressive and breeds hopelessness. So many people in poverty are either depressed or angry. The angry ones sometimes resort to criminal activity to take what they need. The depressed ones fall further and further away from any chance of a better life as they settle into what they believe is all the only life they can achieve.

The coworker I was talking with is one of the few from the circle of people she grew up with who now has a decent job and good benefits for her family. She told me that she came to a realization that everything is a choice and she was making bad ones. How did she know this? Because she enrolled in the Welfare-to-Work program when it was still going strong. Through that program she began to realize how she could mold herself into the person she wanted to be, despite the hand that life had dealt her.

This woman still has not been able to go to college. She desperately wants to but she cannot qualify for loans because of her bad credit and other sources of funding are in short supply.

FYI, JWithers, the man who coined the phrase "God helps those who help themselves" did not believe in God's constant involvement in our lives. The Bible tells a very different story - one of humility, compassion and sacrifice even for the most wretched and undeserving of us.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by JWithers

OMG. All I said was that anyone can go to college. I never said let starving people starve. I never said let the homeless die. I never said get rid of welfare.(although it does need reform) Don't put words in my mouth.

I said that everyone has free access to an education. There is not some hidden code or hierarchy. You just apply for grants and scholarships and fill out your paperwork and you got to college.

And do not preach to me. I am a strong woman of faith and I do believe in Christ's commands that we love our neighbors as ourselves. I am active in my church and carry with me the fruits of the spirit everyday in a bracelet on my arm. One of which is self-control. You and only you are in charge of your destiny. God gives you whatever you begin with and it isn't always much. But He expects you to mkae the most of the gift of life and not blame others when you don't succeed.

I do NOT believe that someone has the right to point a finger at me and say "she didn't tell me how to get into college". I mean c'mon, if you haven't the gumption to fill out a few forms, then how can you say it's my fault you didn't go to college?????

My ONLY statement was in reference to education, and of course I did make an earlier statement earlier about the choice to have children out-of-wedlock and then find yourself alone to raise them.

It is all about choices. That's all I am saying. The Lord helps those that help themselves.

It is ridiculous to intimate that I am not a Christian because I think people should apply for their own college grants instead of giving up and saying they can't afford college becasue the world is against them.

If I have to repeat this one more time I'm gonna need a nap. College, College, College. Not food stamps, not welfare, not WIC.......

I said everyone can go to college if they really want to . Yeeash!!!

But how do you do that with a helicopter going over your area of living and police or ambulance sirens constantly going off?

How do you do that, when your parents don't read or cannot read English so they never thought to tell you a requirement to fillout any forms and which forms do you speak of that they can understand in plain language--cultural competency, perhaps?

How do you do anything when an adult hits you and uses verbally abusive language all the time or sexually abuses you because you are the foster child that everyone but the State gave up on you??? In fact we have several cases of foster parents being pedophiles in my state. I doubt we are an exception.

So, if you are a woman of Faith, then you know all about compassion! Wonderful!!! And it doesn't just occur on a bracelet! Really, with your statements, are you practicing what you preach? And no, I believe God uses people to exact His will to glorify His name.

As I understand it, my state does not have welfare. They have WIC, they have some low income subsidies and housing that has over 1000s people on the waiting list to move into the housing...

Most people do die on the streets... Quite a few of them under 30 years old.

Where does one get educational opportunity to access any school without a computer these days when the public library restricts one's time on that said computer.

I don't know where you have lived, nor do I know your personal experiences, but I do know that you have a heartless view of people in general and I would never wish that on my worse enemy to suffer the plights that I have witnessed. I have lived a fairly decent life and I could not want for nothing, but I have seen injustices.

And because of my blessings, I was taught in Sunday school to pass it on to those who have less than me. And on many levels, I give suffering people those Spiritual needs of "living water".

All people can be uplifted. And for you to make the kinds of statements in response to my comments, it is one thing to disagree on equally yoked people, but it is totally another on impoverished people. And your "poverty"--one of the soul--how can I lift your life up?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by KappaKittyCat

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but I just ran across a very interesting book called The Feminine Mistake (by Leslie Bennetts) that discusses this very issue. It talks about women who didn't work once they got married because they had a man to provide for them, and then something happened to their husbands (death or divorce) and they were left without the means to fend for themselves.

There's a term for this situation in workforce development: displaced homemaker. And, there are entire organizations devoted to assisting these women in preparing to enter the workforce. The need grows yearly.

[DaemonSeid]

Something else to consider about folks on food stamps....and it was in the article....soem of those affected are those same ones that have the task of feeding us....farmers....

After their fall harvest they have to live on whatever income they make and because we are so busy outsourcing where we get our food and the fact that lots of these sources are gettiogn contaminated....and.....with less and less people taking up farming....it's a wonder for part of the year they have to take govt subsidies...

I geuss we can tell them 'go get a job' to hmm?

check this article out if u would like....

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/pom...rs_on_welfare/

and something else too

http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/welf.html

[JWithers]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

But how do you do that with a helicopter going over your area of living and police or ambulance sirens constantly going off?

How do you do that, when your parents don't read or cannot read English so they never thought to tell you a requirement to fillout any forms and which forms do you speak of that they can understand in plain language--cultural competency, perhaps?

How do you do anything when an adult hits you and uses verbally abusive language all the time or sexually abuses you because you are the foster child that everyone but the State gave up on you??? In fact we have several cases of foster parents being pedophiles in my state. I doubt we are an exception.

So, if you are a woman of Faith, then you know all about compassion! Wonderful!!! And it doesn't just occur on a bracelet! Really, with your statements, are you practicing what you preach? And no, I believe God uses people to exact His will to glorify His name.

As I understand it, my state does not have welfare. They have WIC, they have some low income subsidies and housing that has over 1000s people on the waiting list to move into the housing...

Most people do die on the streets... Quite a few of them under 30 years old.

Where does one get educational opportunity to access any school without a computer these days when the public library restricts one's time on that said computer.

I don't know where you have lived, nor do I know your personal experiences, but I do know that you have a heartless view of people in general and I would never wish that on my worse enemy to suffer the plights that I have witnessed. I have lived a fairly decent life and I could not want for nothing, but I have seen injustices.

And because of my blessings, I was taught in Sunday school to pass it on to those who have less than me. And on many levels, I give suffering people those Spiritual needs of "living water".

All people can be uplifted. And for you to make the kinds of statements in response to my comments, it is one thing to disagree on equally yoked people, but it is totally another on impoverished people. And your "poverty"--one of the soul--how can I lift your life up?

No, you do not know me, nor do you know my life experience.

You do not have permission to judge me or judge the quality of my faith. That alone is displeasing to God.

I simply stated that education is available to people in the most impoverished circumstances. Liz Murray, the daughter of herion addicts, was neglected and abused since infanthood. She was placed in foster care, where she was repeatedly assualted. And yet, somehow, She had the drive and the will to go to school, make good grades and get into Harvard. Flippin' HARVARD!

She didn't blame me for her circumstance. She didn't cry, "I can't do it because no one will help me". She made her life work. SHe took the crappy hand life dealt her and refused to let it hold her back.

You do not , I repeat, not, know me. You do not know what contributions I make to my community and you do not know where I sit with my Lord. Don't you judge me, it is not your place. I teach Sunday School, too, and also lead a ministry for teens in crisis. So keep your self-righteous rhetoric to yourself. You speak in hyperbole and and speak knowingly of what you know not.

And I agree, we are here for His glory. How is it glorifying Him to say, "I can't , it's too hard". If thats how you feel , you just go ahead and throw God's gift in His face. But I thank Him everyday, even when I buried a child, even when I thought I couldn't go on, I thanked Him and I got up, moved on and praised His name.

You do not know me, you have no right to judge me and I will respectfully ask you to not do so again. My soul is not impoverished, it is full, my cup runneth over. In the face of every pain I have suffered I stand here and tell you 'God is good'.

I still stand strong on what I said. An education is available to anyone with the will to obtain it.

The fact that you feel the need to cast aspersions on another's faith tells me that maybe you are not filled with the Spirit.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Kevin--

Most of the time agree with you.

Thanks.

But these statement. Can you be any more heartless and so hardened? Do you call yourself a Christian with your kind of thinking? Stewardship, Lovingkindness and Charity? These ideals are all parts of LOVE... We Christians are called to follow one last commandment to "love one another"... Who are you on that trail to Jericho?

I think you confuse Christian compassion with something else. On the one hand, I've been involved in plenty of charitable good works type things. My wife is a dedicated teacher at an inner city charters school and I do plenty to help out there

But Christian compassion for your fellow man is one thing. It's virtuous, good, etc.

Using your government to enforce Christian compassion via taxation of your fellow man (who may not be a compassionate Christian) and wealth redistribution (basically at the point of a gun) is quite another thing.

I think it's important to differentiate the two because this conversation really (in my mind) only reaches governmental policy.

You are turning your back on humanity. Another name it is called idolatry--attempting to be beyond the view of God.

Our government is one for people, not one for a particular religion, any religion or some moral persuasion. I think it's civilized, not Christian for society to care for those who truly cannot provide for themselves.

I think it's immoral for society to force its members to give of themselves to support others who simply choose not to work.

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

- Luke 11:9

It seems that even the Christian religion would ask that people put forth a little effort to better themselves whether it be spiritually, I think as Luke is discussing or physiologically.

Also, it goes without saying that people who choose not to work and instead rely on society's good will to feed them are literally stealing food from the mouths of those who are unable to go to work. So yes. Let them starve.

Fact is, in the course of life you NEVER KNOW if loss of everything including your mind and credibility can happen. Just ask Job, if you think it doesn't. And guess what, folks that lose everything think it would NEVER happen to them in a million years.

The thing is -- a person who can get it all and lose it can usually scrape their way back up to the top. I'm not advocating that we take away from those who use the system for what it was designed for -- a temporary safety net. I'm saying we cut off those who have made it a way of life.

I don't want to get into the details, but of course, this would involve opportunities for rehabilitation, plenty of warnings, etc. I'm not advocating we simply cut them off, but I am saying that we decide to stop allowing people to victimize society and themselves by allowing such an open ended system.

So, it is prudent to show some humility and without prejudice. Because ultimately, you will die someday... And if you believe in God and Christ, then you will have to explain that dash in between your birthdate and death date.

But first, I'll explain it to you Hope I've cleared things up.

Now, I know you support many wonderful things and several positive forces in your life have provided aspects in your life to bequeathed you with the degrees, knowledge and training for the career of your wildest dreams. You have been truly blessed to be in your position. However, many extremely impoverished people have criminal records.

So do a lot of my wealthy friends from high school and college. People are capable of making really stupid decisions in life. Those who do must suffer the consequences. At some point, we, as a society must recognize that folks have to be ultimately responsible for themselves (assuming they are physically and mentally capable).

I just attended a graduation ceremony this afternoon at my wife's school. The challenges these kids contend with, being kicked out of their parents' homes, in one case, even being taken in by a teacher, drugs, gangs, fights, reality, etc. is amazing. That these kids could carry a full AP load and actually make it through high school, the vast majority going on to college is a truly amazing thing. Many of these kids rely on Oklahoma City's piss poor bus system to get to and from school every day. I saw one get a full ride to Macalester and another to Clemson straight from the ghetto. These kids took that 'impossible' adversity many in this thread have discussed -- and they kicked its sorry ass

-- So it ain't impossible.

Sure, these kids might have stratospheric IQ's, but they did overcome some pretty monumental stuff.

So, inevitably we, the taxpayers, wind up paying for them anyway... I would prefer remediation, with homeless assistance and education rather than prison anyday. It is cheaper in the longrun. And now the poor recividism from prison release without proper retraining has become a public health issue.

Me too. I agree completely. We need to stop pouring money into dead ends and dead beats and expect something back from them. You want that government paycheck? Terrific. Learn to weld, sew, type. You have 6 months, then the money dries up. If you want to reapply, a social worker will have to reassess your need and whether or not you made a real effort to get a job - what's not working, etc.

All people deserve dignity... That is a Geneva Convention under the world court.

We are not subject to the world court

Further, the Geneva Convention does not protect non-combatents. Just ask the good folks at Guantanamo.

Overt starvation without the state's attempt to improve it is a human rights violation, moreover, it is tortuous for government agencies not to protect the dignity and rights of all its people within its borders.

It's even worse for those people nto to protect their own dignity. If the state could develop a comprehensive rehabilitation program, stop paying people to make babies, give all people in poverty a reasonable means out, then yes, I think we at some point have to be able to say "enough is enough."

Or maybe $21/week'll do?

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by JWithers

I said that everyone has free access to an education. There is not some hidden code or hierarchy. You just apply for grants and scholarships and fill out your paperwork and you got to college.


I said everyone can go to college if they really want to . Yeeash!!!

Do you really think that every human being in this country has the intellectual capability of going to college and succeeding there? Seriously?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Do you really think that every human being in this country has the intellectual capability of going to college and succeeding there? Seriously?

There are other types of education besides college..

But you're right. The world needs ditch diggers too.

-- but isn't that one of those jobs Americans won't do?

[preciousjeni]

Throwing statistics out there...

I did a brief search to see what we're dealing with here. There is always a lag in statistical data related to the overall population of the U.S. and many predictions are based on the last census in 2000. With that said:

1) In 2005, there were 37 million people in poverty (12.6 percent of the population). Though I couldn't readily find more current data, I'd venture to say that the percentage hasn't moved much...if anything, it has increased.

2) The current unemployment rate is 5.4 percent.

3) The 2007 poverty guidelines allow for $10,210 for a single person (in the contiguous 48 states).

So, the statistics back what a number of people have said in this thread. Most of the people in poverty are working.