How strict is your pledge ed programs...?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally posted by 33girl
Alpha Phi Omega does require pledges to complete a certain number of service hours. The big difference is that we do not have selective membership procedures. Everyone who wants to pursue membership is permitted to do so - therefore there must be some way to determine fitness for membership.

As far as what Little E was talking about - many NPC sororities require members to be in another extracurricular. I've never heard it specified WHAT, however. If you want to be in a club that only meets once a year and is basically only to put on your resume, I'm sure that would work - it's not what is intended, but if you're really intent on doing as little as possible I'm sure that you can.

I know I used to read about the sororities' pledges only participating in things like Derby Daze and never thought that was quite right. I still don't, but now knowing the size of the sororities at some schools I'm sure that the poor Sigma Chis would be overwhelmed.

It definitely varies based on what the national practices are and how each chapter carries these practices out. Certain chapters of Alpha Phi Omega incorporate ways to weed out potentials beyond requiring service hours.

As a more general point without trying to take all of these variations into consideration, many organizations have practices that are only required of pledges. These practices can technically be hazing but that's under the very broad categorization of hazing.

[ThetaPam]

Although I don't chime in often, I found this thread pretty interesting.

Here at UTD, we don't require our new members to do anything separate from the actives, mostly because we were founded after the anti-hazing laws. There are no older members with the mentality of "I had to do it, so do you" to pass on "chapter traditions."

On their first night in Theta, our new members are given their new member pins. They're not required to wear it 24/7, and in fact, we make it clear that nothing bad is going to happen to them should they be caught without it/lose it/etc. However, we stress to them how proud they should be of our fraternity and that this pin is a visible way of showing that pride; that when they're wearing that pin, they're telling the world they're Thetas.

So our girls wear their pins all over campus, as often as they can. We've even had girls on the night before their initiation ask if they could please just keep their new member pin because they love it so much.

Naturally, anywhere that they're wearing their new member pins, they're not drinking. I'd imagine most NPC organizations have similar policies with the times a new member pin can be worn and the activities one can participate in while wearing it. So in a way, our girls impose on themselves not quite an alcohol-free, but at least alcohol-reduced, new member period.

And just for reference, here's the definition of hazing from NPC's website:

"Hazing is defined as any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity. All member groups will affirm their policies denouncing hazing and inform their membership of this NPC position denouncing hazing through mailings and through their inter/national magazines."

It's not the simplified "asking new members to do something other than what the actives do" that we've all come to repeat so frequently.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

thetapam brings me to another question I am highly curious about...


How stict are ya'll to drinking with your letters on or anything affiliated with your chapter. Like a t-shirt that said 'theta,' would you be allowed to drink at all with that on, or is every GLO pretty strict about that?

[ThetaPam]

I can only speak for my chapter on that, but we're strict. We have a small Greek system, everyone recognizes everyone else, and you can bet the Member Development Committee will hear about it within 24 hours.

[aephi alum]

Originally posted by a.e.B.O.T.
How stict are ya'll to drinking with your letters on or anything affiliated with your chapter. Like a t-shirt that said 'theta,' would you be allowed to drink at all with that on, or is every GLO pretty strict about that?

AEPhi is pretty strict about drinking in letters - it's a big no-no. My local was even more strict - letters were not to be worn where alcohol was being served, regardless of whether you were drinking or not.

AEPhis are supposed to abide by all federal and state laws and campus regulations regarding alcohol (and smoking too, I believe - I am a nonsmoker, so I didn't pay much attention to smoking-related rules). New members are usually underage, so they are not supposed to drink for that reason - but the same applies to underage sisters.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

we dont have any rules on it, and some guys will tell people to remove their shirts or turn it inside out, but most dont care... but I feel like thats a big no-no...

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
The survival of this discussion is apparently contingent upon whether you're a smartass. Recognize your power.

I wonder if I have the power to say, STAY ON TOPIC IN YOUR OWN THREAD?

Anyway, I totally agree with ThetaPam on her chapter's view points on the new member pin. The new member pin is not a 24/7 requirement, it is an OPTIONAL but ENCOURAGED way to show pride in your new organization. The only time a new member pin would be "required" would be when other chapter members are wearing their badges as well.

To me, it's all about your theory of the purpose of the new member/pledge period. The time a Phi spends during her Phi period is to acclimate her to the organization. I want her to start following the rules of the general chapter as soon as possible so she can get used to how things work. She should not have to do anything additional outside of basic membership requirements (meetings, study hours, philanthropy) to "prove her worth" as a sister. We chose her as a new member of Phi Mu on Bid Day. She has an adjustment period before Initiation to learn more about our sorority and prepare her for full membership.

Not drinking on a Saturday night has absolutely NOTHING to do with that.

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
I wonder if I have the power to say, STAY ON TOPIC IN YOUR OWN THREAD?

Actually the topic for this thread was were there any ristrictions beyone dry pledging like restricting TV, so its already sort of off topic.

However, I agree with you, which is why I started this thread. I am conflicted on which side is really better, but most of me leans towards to what you are saying. However, to call the otherside hazing, i find a little foolish

[valkyrie]

So is the concept of wearing a pledge pin 24/7 kind of like Mormon garments? Like, when you're in the shower, should you, in theory, be touching the pin because you can't exactly wear it while you're naked but need to be constantly reminded of your covenant with your GLO?

[SirHornyToad]

Let's think about it this way though, at least at our campus there are at least 2-3 primarily freshman dorms, now if I want to party any night of the week my first spot to go wouldnt be my chapter house, why? because people live here, people are studying, sleep, working whatever, you head over to the main freshman dorm and I promise you'll find a party in 10 seconds flat. Now considering that most of our pledge classes are primarily freshman, there are usually at least some juniors mixed in, or older freshman that did military service etc, so they end up haveing a pledge brother who will buy them booze every once in a while. Then factor in that probably half of the freshman are going to have fake IDs and wether they are pledging with them or not they will have friends with fake IDs who would be willing to buy them booze every once in a while. Throw in some transfer students that tend to make friends with freshman as they come in to orientation together and you get a few more resources. Now consider the fact that most GLOs tend to recruit active students on campus, IE sports players, student govt, student news paper, people in clubs etc, it's very much in the realm of possabilities for a freshie to meet some cool upperclassmen that are ok buying them booze, not to mention teammates etc. The bottom line is that there are always those nieve, freshman or sophmores or juniors that get in over thier head with the partying, much of which happens in dorm rooms and other off campus locations such as apts, dive bars etc. It's not hard to find a party if you want to, I think that taking a short period of time and making it off limits inorder to assure that they do not compromise their studies/pledging experiance is well worth it.

[ZZ-kai-]

Actually, you cannot say that, because 1. it's not your thread, and 2. it's his thread, so whatever he say's in his thread, is on topic.

Secondly, you state it's OPTIONAL but ENCOURAGED....if that doesn't sound like hazing, nothing does. I can only imagine seeing your President saying that in your pledge ceremony, when your sisters are dressed as demons, hopping around them in their horned-hooded garments with white skull face paint on, underneath a black light - OPTIONAL but ENCOURAGED....yeah, I bet none of them feel intimidated to wear it, right?

Of course, it couldn't be hazing because it's YOUR group, right?

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
I wonder if I have the power to say, STAY ON TOPIC IN YOUR OWN THREAD?

Anyway, I totally agree with ThetaPam on her chapter's view points on the new member pin. The new member pin is not a 24/7 requirement, it is an OPTIONAL but ENCOURAGED way to show pride in your new organization.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by valkyrie
So is the concept of wearing a pledge pin 24/7 kind of like Mormon garments? Like, when you're in the shower, should you, in theory, be touching the pin because you can't exactly wear it while you're naked but need to be constantly reminded of your covenant with your GLO?

No, but plenty of fraternities do require pledges/probationary members/candidates/whatever-they-call-them to wear pledge pins "24/7" (excepting the shower, sleepwear or athletic uniforms, etc.) In other words, if you're wearing clothes, unless it's a uniform of some sort, you should also be wearing your pledge pin.

Originally posted by CarolinaCutie
To me, it's all about your theory of the purpose of the new member/pledge period. The time a Phi spends during her Phi period is to acclimate her to the organization. I want her to start following the rules of the general chapter as soon as possible so she can get used to how things work. She should not have to do anything additional outside of basic membership requirements (meetings, study hours, philanthropy) to "prove her worth" as a sister. We chose her as a new member of Phi Mu on Bid Day. She has an adjustment period before Initiation to learn more about our sorority and prepare her for full membership.

A very good point, which points up a major difference in the approaches of NPC orgs and most fraternities (NIC and non-NIC). In most (not all, but most) fraternities, the pledge period is just as much of a testing period as a learning period. The pledge period is both a time to learn about the fraternity and to prove one's self worthy to be a brother.

Just because you were pledged doesn't mean you will be initiated. At the end of the pledge period in most fraternities I am aware of, the chapter takes a second vote on the pledge -- whether to initiate him. The necessary vote varies from fraternity to fraternity. In mine, a pledge must receive a 3/4 majority vote by secret ballot -- in some fraternities, a unanimous vote is required.

Originally posted by ThetaPam
And just for reference, here's the definition of hazing from NPC's website: . . . .

Thanks for putting that NPC definition in, ThetaPam. It makes clear that, according to NPC guidelines, both pledges/new members and existing member can be hazed. (" . . . for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity.") It also makes clear that the relevant criteria is not whether the activity in question has anything to do with learning about the GLO.

But I fail to see how either requiring pledges to wear a pledge pin or a mandatory dry pledge period "recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or . . . willfully destroys or removes public or private property . . . ."

Of course, this definition only applies to NPC orgs. Other orgs will have their own definitions.

[ThetaPam]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
But I fail to see how either requiring pledges to wear a pledge pin or a mandatory dry pledge period "recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or . . . willfully destroys or removes public or private property . . . ."

I agree 100%. The definition we're being given from NPC and the application of the rule have become 2 completely different things.

As far as the pledge pin rule, it's probably been deemed non-mandatory because it's served as a gateway to other activities that do endanger a new member's mental or physical health.

[CarolinaCutie]

Originally posted by SirHornyToad
Let's think about it this way though, at least at our campus there are at least 2-3 primarily freshman dorms, now if I want to party any night of the week my first spot to go wouldnt be my chapter house, why? because people live here, people are studying, sleep, working whatever, you head over to the main freshman dorm and I promise you'll find a party in 10 seconds flat. Now considering that most of our pledge classes are primarily freshman, there are usually at least some juniors mixed in, or older freshman that did military service etc, so they end up haveing a pledge brother who will buy them booze every once in a while. Then factor in that probably half of the freshman are going to have fake IDs and wether they are pledging with them or not they will have friends with fake IDs who would be willing to buy them booze every once in a while. Throw in some transfer students that tend to make friends with freshman as they come in to orientation together and you get a few more resources. Now consider the fact that most GLOs tend to recruit active students on campus, IE sports players, student govt, student news paper, people in clubs etc, it's very much in the realm of possabilities for a freshie to meet some cool upperclassmen that are ok buying them booze, not to mention teammates etc. The bottom line is that there are always those nieve, freshman or sophmores or juniors that get in over thier head with the partying, much of which happens in dorm rooms and other off campus locations such as apts, dive bars etc. It's not hard to find a party if you want to, I think that taking a short period of time and making it off limits inorder to assure that they do not compromise their studies/pledging experiance is well worth it.

This is a good point. I still do not agree that a dry pledge period is necessarily the answer, but I do see how pledges might get in over their heads in partying without the help of the brotherhood.

Originally posted by ZZ-kai-
Actually, you cannot say that, because 1. it's not your thread, and 2. it's his thread, so whatever he say's in his thread, is on topic.

Secondly, you state it's OPTIONAL but ENCOURAGED....if that doesn't sound like hazing, nothing does. I can only imagine seeing your President saying that in your pledge ceremony, when your sisters are dressed as demons, hopping around them in their horned-hooded garments with white skull face paint on, underneath a black light - OPTIONAL but ENCOURAGED....yeah, I bet none of them feel intimidated to wear it, right?

Of course, it couldn't be hazing because it's YOUR group, right?

It was a joke between DSTCHAOS and I, lighten up. Not to mention that "it's his thread, so whatever he says in his thread is on topic" is incredibly poor logic.

No, it's not hazing at all. New members are given a new member pin at their pledging ceremony which they can wear with a dressy outfit, at any time where the members would normally be wearing their badges. Phi Mu also has a new member ribbon which may be worn on a daily basis to class, work, etc. As we have seen in a recent thread on GreekChat, some campuses utilize these ribbons more than others. The ribbons are given with guidelines on where you may and may not wear them (ie, do not wear them to a bar or fraternity party), and girls MAY wear them every day if they choose. They are designed to indicate their status as a new member so they may show pride in the organization (remembering that they likely do not have very much other paraphenalia to denote their membership). If I were to see a new member without her ribbon on, she would not be chastized; I probably wouldn't even notice.

Your example is ridiculous and is nowhere near to the truth- it serves no purpose. It is not hazing because A. it follows my organization's official protocol and B. it is not a requirement for membership. This is how it works in the NPC.

MysticCat, I am with ThetaPam once again... the basic PREMISE of requiring a pledge to wear a pledge pin is harmless. And if a national organization has this requirement in their pledge program, I do not fault them for it. BUT you always have to consider what individual chapters will do to bastardize the rules and turn any tiny inch into a hazing mile. Requiring pledges to wear their pin in the shower, pin it to their underwear, humiliating them when they show up without it, etc... Granted, it's always a slippery slope. An idiot chapter can turn ANYTHING into hazing. But the pledge pin has definitely been used as a gateway in the past.

[emb021]

Originally posted by DSTCHAOS
It definitely varies based on what the national practices are and how each chapter carries these practices out. Certain chapters of Alpha Phi Omega incorporate ways to weed out potentials beyond requiring service hours.

As a more general point without trying to take all of these variations into consideration, many organizations have practices that are only required of pledges. These practices can technically be hazing but that's under the very broad categorization of hazing.

APO has our National Pledging Standards. Each chapter defines the specifics of their program in line with the NPS.

Service hours are only one of several pledge requirements that most chapters require. Others are things like attending meetings, meeting the Brothers, wearing (within reason) the pledge pin), planning/carrying out a pledge class service project, learning about APO and being tested on this, etc. While the pledge requirements should not be designed to 'weed out the unworthy', they do have that affect on those who are unwilling to devote themselves to what the organization is all about. If someone pledges APO and doesn't do the service hours required, what will they do when they become a Brother and are expected to do service hours to maintain active membership??? (heck, even advisors and alumni volunteers put in service hours!!!)

You need to be careful in regardes to "practices that are only required of pledges". In APO, the aim of our pledge program is to get the pledges into the habits that will be expected of them as actives. Active Brothers are expected to do service hourse, hence pledges are as well. Active Brothers are expected to come to meetings, pay dues/fees, participate in the chapter etc, hence the pledges are as well. All Brothers should be proud to wear their badge &/or Service Pin or Life Member Pin, hence pledges are asked to wear a pledge pin. Everything that an APO pledge is asked of has a direct impact on their (hopefully) future involvement as an APO Brother.

Some GLOers (and their organizations) take the attitude that asking any pledges to 'do' anything is hazing. They fail to see that there are many things that their actives are asked/expected to do, and so their pledges need to be prepared to do these. Yes, asking pledges to do worthless, meaningless actives that have no impact on their future membership can be hazing (you know, nonsense like making them learning meaningless facts about the active members, when they should be learning about the organizations history and values, or making them do meaningless tasks when they could be doing meaningFUL service work for worth causes), but asking them to model what will be expected of them as active members is a reasonable expectation.