Divorce or premarital Sex?

[AGDee]

I was thinking about this thread a lot on my drive home from work and realized something...

While I enjoy these discussions because I think it's important for each of us to reflect on our belief systems anyway, I think we're trying to debate logically something that isn't based in logic at all. Faith is not logical. Faith is emotive, intuitive, individual and personal. When I think about why I chose the Catholic church over other denominations (because I did a lot of research and visiting of other denominations), I realized that it was mainly because of how I felt in the Catholic church.

It was sort of like we tell women who are going through recruitment that you get a feeling that it's right. Or when you buy a house and you walk into the right one and it just feels like home. That's how the Catholic church is for me. I can probably come up with a lot of logical reasons on why I felt that way, but the reality is, it felt right. The Sacrament of Eucharist is so special to me and makes me feel so close to the Lord that I have never found anything else that makes me feel the same way. That said, if I really analyzed it, maybe it makes me feel that way because I grew up with a big Italian extended family all of whom were Catholic (except me) and went to church often for mass, weddings, funerals, etc. I was always envious that they got to go up for Communion. We used to play "church" and smash pieces of bread and take Communion when we were kids. All my friends were Catholic because I lived in a large Italian/Polish community. There was a Catholic church every square mile. I always felt left out because my friends went to Catechism and had First Communion parties. Is my special feeling that I get when I take the Eucharist all due to those circumstances? It might be, from a logical view point, but from a view point of FAITH, those aren't the reasons. The reason is that I feel the Holy Spirit at that time. I am deeply emotionally moved by the act of taking Communion.

The bottom line is, it's about Faith, which isn't logical.

Dee

[honeychile]

Originally posted by AGDee
I was thinking about this thread a lot on my drive home from work and realized something...

While I enjoy these discussions because I think it's important for each of us to reflect on our belief systems anyway, I think we're trying to debate logically something that isn't based in logic at all. Faith is not logical. Faith is emotive, intuitive, individual and personal. When I think about why I chose the Catholic church over other denominations (because I did a lot of research and visiting of other denominations), I realized that it was mainly because of how I felt in the Catholic church.

It was sort of like we tell women who are going through recruitment that you get a feeling that it's right. Or when you buy a house and you walk into the right one and it just feels like home. That's how the Catholic church is for me. I can probably come up with a lot of logical reasons on why I felt that way, but the reality is, it felt right. The Sacrament of Eucharist is so special to me and makes me feel so close to the Lord that I have never found anything else that makes me feel the same way. That said, if I really analyzed it, maybe it makes me feel that way because I grew up with a big Italian extended family all of whom were Catholic (except me) and went to church often for mass, weddings, funerals, etc. I was always envious that they got to go up for Communion. We used to play "church" and smash pieces of bread and take Communion when we were kids. All my friends were Catholic because I lived in a large Italian/Polish community. There was a Catholic church every square mile. I always felt left out because my friends went to Catechism and had First Communion parties. Is my special feeling that I get when I take the Eucharist all due to those circumstances? It might be, from a logical view point, but from a view point of FAITH, those aren't the reasons. The reason is that I feel the Holy Spirit at that time. I am deeply emotionally moved by the act of taking Communion.

The bottom line is, it's about Faith, which isn't logical.

Dee

Exactly!

[irishpipes]

When I think about why I chose the Catholic church over other denominations (because I did a lot of research and visiting of other denominations), I realized that it was mainly because of how I felt in the Catholic church.

I would certainly second that. My whole younger life I knew very little about Catholicism despite being raised Catholic and attending Catholic grade school and high school. Yet, I never considered other faiths because it was part of who I am and was my home. It felt right for me.

As an adult I have spent a lot of energy studying up on my faith. I do it because I enjoy it, it's interesting. It is comforting to know the answers to all the things I always did just on faith or because that's how we always did it. I didn't like being accused of being a sheep just following the Church by some people I knew. I realized that blind faith is not faith at all, but rather indecision and cowardice. Only by my informed faith can I truly appreciate and understand my religion. I get so much more out of it that way. I don't sit in Mass and meditate on how "right" the Catholic Church is. It isn't an academic exercise at all. I still feel the warmth and the love of God there. It is still home to me.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by irishpipes
The people in the Church have changed, the doctrines have not.

Also, your inability to receive the Eucharist is not to exclude you. It isn't because you are unworthy - just spiritually unprepared. In fact, many, many Catholics are not "eligible" to receive the Eucharist. Catholics must be in a state of grace in order to receive the Eucharist. Many Catholics are not and therefore should not receive. Non-Catholics cannot be in this state of grace.

Ah... yes - hence the part of the Catholic Mass were the parishoners intone: "Say the word and I am healed" in reference to recieving the Eurcharist... though a lttteral Latin translation might be best: "Say unto me your word, and I shall be made whole/pristine again". Which in the Catholic doctrine means that you may recieve the sacrament of the Eucharist if the only sins you have currently "unforgiven" are venial ones (ie. minor and not mortal).

[RACooper]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
Yes. Yes you are on crack. Might help with the rec writing at least!

I was baptised by a Catholic priest in the clubhouse of my parent's townhouse complex. But I was raised in the Presbyterian church with my mom. I have attended many a mass with dad's side though. And, shhhh, I take communion every time I go...

Which is actually fine according to Catholic doctrine - you were Baptized (recieved a Sacrament) into the Catholic Church... something that doctrinally speaking can't be undone by you, but only by the Church - ala Excummonincation.

[irishpipes]

Which is actually fine according to Catholic doctrine - you were Baptized (recieved a Sacrament) into the Catholic Church... something that doctrinally speaking can't be undone by you, but only by the Church - ala Excummonincation.

She may have been baptized into the Church, but unless she was catechised to the sacrament of the Eucharist, this is improper. Additionally, not attending Sunday Mass is a mortal sin, and unless confessed would put one outside of the required state of grace for the Eucharist. But you are correct that once baptized, always baptized. In fact, the Catholic Church recognizes any Christian baptism. If a person is a baptized say Lutheran or Methodist and then converts to Catholicism, the Church does not "re-baptize" them.

[xo_kathy]

Originally posted by irishpipes
Also, to ask why Jesus did NOT say certain things is argumentative. I mean, Jesus did NOT say "go and write a bunch of books and bind them into a Bible." Yet, not only did we do just that, but all Christian religions rely heavily, if not exclusively on that Bible. I can't refute or affirm things Jesus did NOT say, only what He did, as my faith has interpreted it over the past 2000+ years.

This is actually a really good point. As is Dee's that it is faith and not exactly logical, so very hard to argue it one way or the other. Trust me, I try all the time with my husband who loves my minister, agrees with the stance of my chruch, agrees that Jesus was a cool dude, but just can't agree with the "exclusionist attitude" of Christianity - or most organized religion actually.

And as for my graceful state - don't think you're getting my butt into a confessional! My sins are between me and God, thank you very much! Crazy Catholics...

[aurora_borealis]

Originally posted by xo_kathy
This is actually a really good point. As is Dee's that it is faith and not exactly logical, so very hard to argue it one way or the other. Trust me, I try all the time with my husband who loves my minister, agrees with the stance of my chruch, agrees that Jesus was a cool dude, but just can't agree with the "exclusionist attitude" of Christianity - or most organized religion actually.

And as for my graceful state - don't think you're getting my butt into a confessional! My sins are between me and God, thank you very much! Crazy Catholics...

A lot of the Lutherans (ELCA) that I know feel that they don't need confession, as God already knows what they have done. Furthermore, during the silent reflection during communion, they hash it out with him.

[aephi alum]

This is an interesting discussion.

I have a few questions about Catholicism, despite my Catholic upbringing...

irishpipes, you say "not attending Sunday Mass is a mortal sin". I assume that refers to holy days of obligation as well. What if you are too ill to attend or some other extenuating circumstance prevents your attendance? Is it still a mortal sin? I didn't think it was... (Although, with today's technological advancements, I'm hard pressed to think of an "acceptable" reason not to attend Mass. You can "attend" Mass remotely by watching a televised Mass or having your church call you and listening over the phone.)

It's my understanding that if you're conscious of a mortal sin, you must confess it AND do your penance before you can receive communion again - is that correct?

Anyway, to pull this thread slightly more on-topic, I took a look through the website Dee posted earlier. It seems that premarital sex is indeed considered a mortal sin because it falls under lust, one of the seven deadly sins. Also in that category are homosexual sex, masturbation, oral sex, sex where birth control is used... basically anything other than sex between a man and a woman who are married to each other, where the goal is to produce a baby. Whoof... did I mention I'm no longer Catholic? (ETA: I'm not bashing Catholicism by any means, just indicating one of the many reasons why I did not feel Catholicism was "right" for me.)

[AKA_Monet]

Actually, I find the history of the Catholic Church very interesting and the reasons why there are "these beliefs" and how they came into being. There is quite a bit of history there.

I also think that our participation in a religious doctrine is a cultural one--American, Familial, Friendship, Collegial, etc. We "feel" a part of something that gives us introspection into our lives to hold our moral barometers in check--not a measurement of God, rather a testimony of His actions working through our lives.

And sometimes, I've gotta catch the "Holy Spirit" with all the hoopin' and hollarin' because that makes me feel closer to Christ at that time...

But rattlesnakes are only as good as they are on my shoes...

Right now, I am probably a big sinner because maybe I'm a hypocrite with my life.

However, somehow, no matter how hard I might think life is to me and tried harder to mess it up for myself, God gets a hold of me and straightens me out.

That to me is being "touched by the Spirit"...

"We are ALL like sheep, waiting to be slaughtered..."

[RACooper]

Originally posted by aephi alum
This is an interesting discussion.

I have a few questions about Catholicism, despite my Catholic upbringing...

irishpipes, you say "not attending Sunday Mass is a mortal sin". I assume that refers to holy days of obligation as well. What if you are too ill to attend or some other extenuating circumstance prevents your attendance? Is it still a mortal sin? I didn't think it was... (Although, with today's technological advancements, I'm hard pressed to think of an "acceptable" reason not to attend Mass. You can "attend" Mass remotely by watching a televised Mass or having your church call you and listening over the phone.)

Well a "mortal sin" is one that is a purpisefully done sin, knowing full well that it is a sin - as opposed to "venial sins". Technically you are required to attend Mass once per month, and confession once per year...

It's my understanding that if you're conscious of a mortal sin, you must confess it AND do your penance before you can receive communion again - is that correct?

You can thank the early Irish and the Celtic Church for the obsession with measuring and ranking sincs and penance - as well as the concept of a mortal sin and a venial sin.

Technically speaking mortal sins must be confessed to be forgiven - whereas venial ones can be forgiven by a blessing... hence the holy water at the enterance to the Church - by blessing yourself with the blessed water your venial sins are absolved.... but getting back to "mortal sins"; those are the ones that are supposed to be confessed, and that you are supposed to do penance for - and the sins that are supposed to prevent you from recieving the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Anyway, to pull this thread slightly more on-topic, I took a look through the website Dee posted earlier. It seems that premarital sex is indeed considered a mortal sin because it falls under lust, one of the seven deadly sins. Also in that category are homosexual sex, masturbation, oral sex, sex where birth control is used... basically anything other than sex between a man and a woman who are married to each other, where the goal is to produce a baby. Whoof... did I mention I'm no longer Catholic? (ETA: I'm not bashing Catholicism by any means, just indicating one of the many reasons why I did not feel Catholicism was "right" for me.)

Actually sex within a marriage can be a mortal or "deadly" sin... sex based soley in lust is considered a greater sin than adultery by the Church - now when they say lust they mean one partner using and treating the other as nothing more than a way to satisfy themselves either sexually or simply to make children (the absence of love makes it a sin). This view has been within the Church for centuries... one of the great early tracts within the Church on marriage is by Raymond of Penafort - On Marriage; within the Summa de Paenitentia (1234)

Now the part about "lust" is important - because it is one of the theological pillars behind the prohabition against certain sexual practices. So oral sex for instance is all good within a loving marriage - at least theologically speaking; because the physical expression of love is actually required as part of maritial obligations according to Church doctrine (well mainstream).

For interest sake (and since I've been working on the translations all week) here is a paragraph from the document I mentioned earlier:

These goods are effective for the avoidance of sin, if the spouses have sexual intercourse while perserving the faith of their marriage bed, and for the sake of offspring. And so note that at times spouses have intercourse for the sake of generating offspring, at times for the sake of rendering the debt, at times because of incontinence or to avoid fornication, at times for the sake of satisfying lust. In the first and second case, there is no sin; in the third, there is a venial one; in the fourth, there is a mortal one...

Keep in mind that this was written as a legal tract by a Domincan monk in the service of the Pope in the 13th century.... and was the guiding tract up until the 19th or so century.

[AchtungBaby80]

I disagree with the concept of sin.

[CougADPi]

Originally posted by aurora_borealis
A lot of the Lutherans (ELCA) that I know feel that they don't need confession, as God already knows what they have done. Furthermore, during the silent reflection during communion, they hash it out with him.

AMEN TO THAT!!

[cashmoney]

Originally posted by AchtungBaby80
I disagree with the concept of sin.

What is your concept of sin? I'd like to know.