Federal judge says partial-birth abortion ban unconstitutional

[DZHBrown]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Not so, once again. I went with a friend once to get her EC at our undergrad's health center, and it was $72, and it required a pregnancy test.

That is not the case at all schools. At Vanderbilt, for example, you see the dr. for 5 minutes, no exam, no pregnancy test and you pay $10.

ETA:
University of Virginia charges $15. Depending on your history, they may or may not do an examination.

University of South Carolina does not routinely test for pregnancy or perform examinations.

University of Wisconsin - Madison has a number you can call and not even see a doctor to get the prescription

University of Michigan requires a visit with a nurse and you pay $13.60 for the pills.

My only point is this - Many people say that emergency contraception is so difficult to get and that's not the case everywhere. It doesn't have to get to the point that someone would need a late-term abortion.

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by DZHBrown
That is not the case at all schools. At Vanderbilt, you see the dr. for 5 minutes, no exam, no pregnancy test and you pay $10.

Well, maybe Vanderbilt cares less about the woman's health and more about protecting the reputation of their little Vandy flowers. I know several of the other schools in Wisconsin do give it out, as opposed to the two I've attended, but they all require a doctor's exam and are substantially more expensive.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by DZHBrown
That is not the case at all schools. At Vanderbilt, you see the dr. for 5 minutes, no exam, no pregnancy test and you pay $10.

I didn't say it was the case at all schools, did I now? I was just pointing out that EC isn't always as easy to get in some places as you seem to believe. My undergrad was pretty liberal, and even then it wasn't the easiest to get. If someone wanted it, they could get it, but it wasn't a wham-bam-thank you 'maam do you want that $10 charged to Daddy's account deal.

Just so you know.

[DZHBrown]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
I didn't say it was the case at all schools, did I now? I was just pointing out that EC isn't always as easy to get in some places as you seem to believe. My undergrad was pretty liberal, and even then it wasn't the easiest to get. If someone wanted it, they could get it, but it wasn't a wham-bam-thank you 'maam do you want that $10 charged to Daddy's account deal.

Just so you know.

Charged to Daddy's account? What's that supposed to mean? Gotta love stereotypes.

I said it wasn't like that at all schools because you said "that's not so" when I said there were other ways to get it. I wanted to make the point that it varies from school to school and throughout various organizations. It sounded to me in your post as if you said the experience your friend had was standard across the board.

Well, maybe Vanderbilt cares less about the woman's health and more about protecting the reputation of their little Vandy flowers.

Or maybe they want to make the process less intimidating. "Little Vandy flowers?"

[Kevin]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Why does anybody think it's the government's position to decide what medical procedures can be done and which ones can't? Isn't that a decision that's better left to, I don't know, medical professionals?

I mean, it's easy enough to just not have an abortion if you think it's wrong. If you're a man, this will never be an issue for you since you could never be pregnant. Why worry about it?

Val, you're oversimplifying the pro-life argument. To them, it's not simply a "medical procedure". It's killing a defenseless human being.

While I personally don't completely agree with that position, I don't agree with yours either. Men are allowed to believe in principles that effect people besides themselves. The pro-choice movement does have some strong, intelligent arguments -- why not use them?

[Kevin]

How did this thread get to be about vanderbilt emergency contraceptions?

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by ktsnake
How did this thread get to be about vanderbilt emergency contraceptions?

DZHBrown assumed every school had access like hers. Some schools (Vanderbilt) it's easy to get, some schools (Marquette) it's impossible to get, some schools it's middle of the road (Brown).

[ASUADPi]

This is such an extremely sensative topic...but getting back to the point of partial birth abortions and not emergency contraceptive.

I myself am pro-choice. I don't think anyone has a right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. With that said, I know myself I could never personally have an abortion but if some other woman wants to that is her right.

If I remember correctly (and those out there feel free to correct me if I am wrong, which I might be) but isn't partial-birth similiar to late term abortion? If so, I don't agree with late term abortions unless the mothers life is at risk. My feeling is that if you can't figure out that you are pregnant after 12 weeks than you are shit out of luck. Unfortunately, I live in a state where abortion is a contraversy because of so few providers and because stat's have shown women using abortion as a means of birth control. I don't agree with that.

My feeling is abortions should be not permitted once the fetus is viable (which means it can survive outside the womb, without the help of machines) it's called wait until the baby is born and give it up for adoption.

It seems from what I've read so far, we all have very mixed opinions on abortion.

I just want to remind everyone that this is a sensative topic, that we are all adults and we can discuss this rationally.

As I always say "agree with me, disagree with me, but please respect my opinion"

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Val, you're oversimplifying the pro-life argument. To them, it's not simply a "medical procedure". It's killing a defenseless human being.

While I personally don't completely agree with that position, I don't agree with yours either. Men are allowed to believe in principles that effect people besides themselves. The pro-choice movement does have some strong, intelligent arguments -- why not use them?

I understand what you're saying and you're right, but I can't say I really understand the belief behind it (plus it just bothers me when men are pro-life because they can't really understand the feeling of "Oh shit what if I'm pregnant" and unless you can understand that, I have a hard time taking your opinion on the issue seriously, from a personal perspective).

I look at it like this -- I am a strict vegetarian and I find it morally wrong to eat meat -- really morally wrong. I'd love to live in a world where nobody killed animals for food. However, I realize that not everybody agrees with me and I can respect the fact that others eat meat -- even though to me, it's killing an innocent, defenseless creature. When it comes down to it, it is not my place to determine what other people do -- and believe me, there are many, many things that I don't agree with that other people do.

To me, the biggest problem with the pro-life argument, from a personal (not legal -- I don't want to get all lawyery right now because I'm drinking a beer) is that to deny a woman an abortion is to FORCE her to carry something inside her body that she does not want there, and to force her to deal with all the crap that goes with pregnancy. I find that unacceptable. It sounds crass but I'll say it anyway -- imagine if you had a tapeworm and it was making you feel sick but someone told you that you had to keep it there for nine months. I don't believe that an "unborn child's" "rights" should ever outweigh those of a woman, period.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
DZHBrown assumed every school had access like hers. Some schools (Vanderbilt) it's easy to get, some schools (Marquette) it's impossible to get, some schools it's middle of the road (Brown).

Thanks for that

I was mostly just asking the question to remind people what the thread was abotu

[Kevin]

Originally posted by valkyrie
I don't believe that an "unborn child's" "rights" should ever outweigh those of a woman, period.

Forgive me if quoting only a small part of what you said seems to misrepresent you. However, you summed up your argument very well with that statement -- and to a point, I agree with you.

This bill was to outlaw a procedure that (thank you sugar&spice) occurs in about 1% of cases. Partial birth abortions become the procedure of choice at about 17 weeks. Medical science now allows us to have babies actually survive after birth from the 21st week on.

As far as what should be legal, and when a person should be considered a person, I've stated before that I believe it should be at the point where the baby would be viable outside the womb. At that point, the life is not so much joined with the mother's. The two can be separated at any point. If a mother wants to deliver the premature baby and then give it up to adoption, an actual delivery is basically the same procedure without the killing part.

I agree that the "Oh shit I'm pregnant" women should have the choice available to them. But with freedom, there should be responsibility. If you want an abortion, get it done. However, I just don't see the justice in destroying a life for the sake of convenience.

Of all the reading I've done on the subject, I couldn't fine even one instance where someone said a partial birth abortion was medically necessary to save a life. If it was, I'd have no problem with it. However, since it's almost the exact same procedure as a delivery, I really don't see how that argument would hold any water at all.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by ASUADPi
This is such an extremely sensative topic...but getting back to the point of partial birth abortions and not emergency contraceptive.

I myself am pro-choice. I don't think anyone has a right to tell me what I can and cannot do with my body. With that said, I know myself I could never personally have an abortion but if some other woman wants to that is her right.

If I remember correctly (and those out there feel free to correct me if I am wrong, which I might be) but isn't partial-birth similiar to late term abortion? If so, I don't agree with late term abortions unless the mothers life is at risk. My feeling is that if you can't figure out that you are pregnant after 12 weeks than you are shit out of luck. Unfortunately, I live in a state where abortion is a contraversy because of so few providers and because stat's have shown women using abortion as a means of birth control. I don't agree with that.

My feeling is abortions should be not permitted once the fetus is viable (which means it can survive outside the womb, without the help of machines) it's called wait until the baby is born and give it up for adoption.

It seems from what I've read so far, we all have very mixed opinions on abortion.

I just want to remind everyone that this is a sensative topic, that we are all adults and we can discuss this rationally.

As I always say "agree with me, disagree with me, but please respect my opinion"

Well stated! (mainly because I agree with every word)

[DZHBrown]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
DZHBrown assumed every school had access like hers. Some schools (Vanderbilt) it's easy to get, some schools (Marquette) it's impossible to get, some schools it's middle of the road (Brown).

This is the last thing I'll say on this since it did get off topic, but I never made that assumption, so don't put the words in my mouth. I was attempting to show that it's NOT extremely difficult to access ECP across the board. I edited my post to reflect that because all that was being said about ECP was that is was so hard to get, it was too expensive, etc. etc. I never made any assumption, as you just did.

[Pike1483]

Godfrey, I appreciate your interest and tactfully asked and researched question about why Christians (in General) feel that abortion is wrong. I also see your point of view and how you interpreted those verses, I however, disagree and interpret those verses differently. I interpret those verses as, If a man ACCIDENTALLY causes harm to an unborn child, then his punishment should not be as severe. It goes on to say that if the woman is further hurt, or if it is maliciously hurt, that the punshment should be greater, as in that of killing a live human (eye for eye stuff). Go on and read that whole chapter, especially Exodus 21:18-26 to get the full context. The King James version is good, and so is the New American Standard Bible, which says:
Exodus
21:22
"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges {decide.}
21:23
"But if there is injury, then you shall appoint {as a penalty} life for life,"

This furthers the cause of Pro-Life, because it says basically, that if 2 men are fighting with each other, and a woman "gets caught in the crossfire" and her unborn child is killed as a result, then the offender's punishment should not be as great as if he had intentionally killed the child and harmed the woman.

I will post some more on this subject in a later thread.

Originally posted by godfrey n. glad
Now that you mention Christian faith, I have to ask where Christians get the idea that God would be anti-abortion. In fact, the Bible doesn't address the morality of abortion at all, and the only verse I know of, in my research, that addresses the death of a fetus/unborn child, is Exodus 21:22-23:



So, it appears that God (given that the Bible is the word of God) doesn't consider the fetus/unborn child to be worth as much as a post-birth human's life. He says that if the fetus/unborn child dies, that's "no mischief." and there are only minor punitive damages as deemed necessary by judges and the husband. Yet, if the woman is seriously harmed, that is what is considered evil. So, if even God doesn't think an unborn child's malicious death is worth more than a slap on the wrist, payment of a fine, or 20 lashes (etc), why do Christians now believe it is his will that they be treated exactly as post-birth humans? I don't question the tradition, just how it originated in the first place. it doesn't appear to come from the Bible/God Himself.

[Pike1483]

I further believe that the very nature of God and knowing Him can lead Christians to believe that God is pro-life. His Loving Nature and love for Children is a good example.

One verse that supports a pro-life stance is Gen 1:27-28 (New American Standard)

27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Christians believe that we are made in the image of God, and that's one reason killing is so wrong. Most Christians believe that life begins with conception.

God wants us to be fruitful and multiply: abortion is not fruitful or multiplying. More "be fruitful and multiply verses" can be found in:
(New American Standard):
Genesis 8:17, 9:1, 9:7, 17:20, 28:3, 35:11, Lev 26:9, Jer 23:3, and Ezek 36:11

Another verse supporting Pro-Life views is the verse I quoted in my original post on this subject. In these verses, God is telling the prophet Jeremiah that before he was even conceived, God had a plan for his life. Most Christians, myself included, believe that God has a plan and vision for our life even before we are conceived, like He had for Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (KJV) says "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 'Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations'."

There are many more verses in the Bible that support the Pro-Life stance. One example is how many women in the Bible see bearing children as a gift and blessing from God. Take Sarah (wife of Abraham-- see the book of Genesis), and Elisabeth (Mother of John the Baptist, Cousin to the Virgin Mary) who were both barren for many years and then blessed with children. Both women were extremely greatful for their children, and knew that God was truely blessing them when he allowed them to conceive.

And perhaps the most famous Mother of all, Mary the Mother of God, also saw her pregnancy as a gift from God.
Luke 1:42 says "...Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."