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Risk Management - Hazing & etc. This forum covers Risk Management topics such as: Hazing, Alcohol Abuse/Awareness, Date Rape Awareness, Eating Disorder Prevention, Liability, etc.

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  #91  
Old 09-11-2003, 06:23 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by adpiucf

People do not go Greek exclusively to consume alcohol. They do not Go Greek for the Study Hours, nor necessarily because they have already chosen a pet philanthropy. People go Greek to make friends and to be part of a group.
A nice sentiment, but is it true? Certainly not all the time. As we're reminded by so many GDIs, they can make friends on their own, and they don't need to pay for it. So if someone chooses to make friends via the thousand-dollar-a-year way (GLOs) as opposed to "for free" (in the dorms) or for cheap (say, the running club), there's a reason why they choose to do it that way -- basically, they think that the experience they will have in a fraternity or sorority is going to be worth all the money they put into it.

I'm not saying that alcohol is the only reason why people join GLOs. But it's usually at least part of the reason, and at some schools it is more than likely going to be the biggest reason. Seeing as sororities and fraternities are usually pretty expensive, people join them because they think they will get something out of them that they can't get anywhere else, or at least not for a cheaper price. If that's the case, the only people who would join sororities and fraternities are the ones who can't make friends any other way. And we all know that's not true.

You can't deny the fact that Greeks drink more than non-Greeks; that's been shown in studies. I'm not saying that we haven't made significant strides towards becoming more well-rounded, either. I think it's clear to all of us that we do far more philanthropy than we did 50 years ago, for example. I imagine there's also more of a focus on academics. But the fact is that our biggest draw, as social organizations, are people who like to be social -- and as you pointed out, in the college environment, alcohol tends to be present as a social lubricant.
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  #92  
Old 09-11-2003, 06:32 PM
sugar and spice sugar and spice is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by AGDee
I agree that it isn't clear whether numbers decline when chapters go dry. Sorority houses have been dry for decades, it's not a new thing and membership has it's ups and downs for many reasons.

I know of one chapter who was put on social probation and they could have mixers but only alcohol free mixers. The initial reaction was "none of the guys will want to party with us then". However, the fraternities on campus supported them through their difficult year, partied with them and some members even found out that you really can have fun without alcohol. Their numbers did NOT decline and their GPA rose!

Numerous studies have shown that the numbers of college students who engage in "binge drinking" (more than 5 drinks in a night) is on the rise but no organization can condone underage drinking or binge drinking. Perhaps some of the rules would be different if everybody drank responsibly, but unfortunately, that isn't the case.

GLOs have a lot more to offer than just doing community service and having study tables.. you're forgetting the most important thing, which is Sisterhood and Brotherhood. No other organization offers that!!!

Dee
But the situations you're speaking of are not comparable to a system where the entire Greek system is dry. Sororities with girls who drink a lot don't mind having dry houses all that much right now because most of the time they can just go around the block to XYZ fraternity's house and drink there for free -- but if XYZ and all the other fraternities on Greek Row are dry too, then what? The sorority you speak of that was on social probation isn't comparable either, because same as in the previous example, they can go over to fraternity houses to drink if they want, not to mention the fact that it was a temporary occurence where they could all see the light at the end of the tunnel.

On a separate note, who says you can't find sisterhood or brotherhood outside of GLOs? I have a group of girls that I met in the dorms that are like sisters to me -- I know them better and get along with them better than I do with some of my Tri Delts. Let's stop kidding ourselves that sisterhood and brotherhood is something that has to be sealed in a ritual before it "counts."
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  #93  
Old 09-11-2003, 06:41 PM
DeltAlum DeltAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by 33girl
The thing about that argument is it ONLY seems to apply to social Greek organizations.

If my friends and I are all in the American Marketing Association, and go out drinking, no one considers it an AMA event. We DID have 5 members - half our chapter - of Alpha Phi Omega living in a house together and often had parties there. No one called it the "A Phi O house."

Where is the legality in that?? It sounds more like discrimination to me, furthered by the GLOs' headquarters.
This is not meant as a joke.

If something should happen during one of your drinking sessions, don't tell anyone you're all a member of the same group, or some bright lawyer will go after them.

You're not an identifiable group as the Marketing Association -- you're not on anybody's radar screen.

Many companies won't serve alcohol at holiday parties now because they may be liable if an employee is hurt or hurts someone on the way home.

Once identified, every group is an equal opportunity target. We've identified ourselves.
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  #94  
Old 09-11-2003, 08:58 PM
adpiucf adpiucf is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
A nice sentiment, but is it true? Certainly not all the time. As we're reminded by so many GDIs, they can make friends on their own, and they don't need to pay for it. So if someone chooses to make friends via the thousand-dollar-a-year way (GLOs) as opposed to "for free" (in the dorms) or for cheap (say, the running club), there's a reason why they choose to do it that way -- basically, they think that the experience they will have in a fraternity or sorority is going to be worth all the money they put into it.

I'm not saying that alcohol is the only reason why people join GLOs. But it's usually at least part of the reason, and at some schools it is more than likely going to be the biggest reason. Seeing as sororities and fraternities are usually pretty expensive, people join them because they think they will get something out of them that they can't get anywhere else, or at least not for a cheaper price. If that's the case, the only people who would join sororities and fraternities are the ones who can't make friends any other way. And we all know that's not true.

You can't deny the fact that Greeks drink more than non-Greeks; that's been shown in studies. I'm not saying that we haven't made significant strides towards becoming more well-rounded, either. I think it's clear to all of us that we do far more philanthropy than we did 50 years ago, for example. I imagine there's also more of a focus on academics. But the fact is that our biggest draw, as social organizations, are people who like to be social -- and as you pointed out, in the college environment, alcohol tends to be present as a social lubricant.
Dear Tri-Delta friend,

You've listed some fantastic motivations behind the desire to join a GLO. Over the years, Greeks have worked to move their image away from the "Animal House" partier stigma--- so that universities will remain friendly to GLOs allow them to remain part of campus culture.

GLOs, in turn, developed total membership education programs in the early 1990s, including stronger emphasis on scholarship and service. NPC has surveyed the likely joiners, and today, PNMs surveyed have acknowledged that their top 3 motivators for joining included 1) Friendship, 2) Emphasis on community work, 3) Emphasis on high educational standards. The face of today's Greek is significantly changed from those even in the 1980s.

HOWEVER, you are correct that in studies, it has been shown that Greeks are likely binge drinkers, and the unconsciously, Greeks are attracting a subculture that is supportive of binge drinking (which leads to poor health and academic performance)

http://www.campusblues.com/drugs5.shtml

Sociological studies tell us that people are social animals-- We join groups and organizations to make friends and connections. Even those who shun conformism still belong to cliques and groups, or adopt the mannerisms and dress of what they perceive as the non-conformist.

Members of a "Student Marketing Association" have likely joined to further their networking ability and meet like-minded folk with similar career aspirations.

People who go Greek -- the "likely joiner" as we have come to call them-- although from diverse backgrounds are individuals looking to make friends within a highly social and structured atmosphere.

Those who do not go Greek join other organizations (offical campus groups or unofficial social cliques-- bonds made through living in like situations, styles of dress, religion, etc.).

Regardless, people DO join GLO's for friendship and the prestige. Any college student can make friends outside of a structured org, can study or find volunteer opportunities and can find ways to socialize outside of the formal structure of a GLO. However, those of us on these boards joined GLOs for that structure and connection. I'd love to meet a Greek who joined his group exclusively to be first in line at a kegger.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints. I'm enjoying all the different perspectives on this thread and the debate waging.

On another note, I hope that Chi Omega and Wake Forest will come to a resolution that works for everyone soon!
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  #95  
Old 09-11-2003, 10:43 PM
AllisonDG AllisonDG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice

On a separate note, who says you can't find sisterhood or brotherhood outside of GLOs? I have a group of girls that I met in the dorms that are like sisters to me -- I know them better and get along with them better than I do with some of my Tri Delts. Let's stop kidding ourselves that sisterhood and brotherhood is something that has to be sealed in a ritual before it "counts."
S&S...this is funny because you are saying everything that I am thinking but I am hesitant to post! I agree with you wholeheartedly!
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  #96  
Old 09-11-2003, 11:09 PM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sugar and spice
But the situations you're speaking of are not comparable to a system where the entire Greek system is dry. Sororities with girls who drink a lot don't mind having dry houses all that much right now because most of the time they can just go around the block to XYZ fraternity's house and drink there for free -- but if XYZ and all the other fraternities on Greek Row are dry too, then what? The sorority you speak of that was on social probation isn't comparable either, because same as in the previous example, they can go over to fraternity houses to drink if they want, not to mention the fact that it was a temporary occurence where they could all see the light at the end of the tunnel.

On a separate note, who says you can't find sisterhood or brotherhood outside of GLOs? I have a group of girls that I met in the dorms that are like sisters to me -- I know them better and get along with them better than I do with some of my Tri Delts. Let's stop kidding ourselves that sisterhood and brotherhood is something that has to be sealed in a ritual before it "counts."

If the whole Greek row is dry, then those who are of age can go to a bar or a restaurant and have a drink or they can go to the apartments of non-Greek friends if they choose. Those who aren't of age simply don't drink. It's illegal for them to drink and GLOs cannot support their members breaking the law. I guess the question really is "Why is drinking necessary?".

The Alumnae Club I belong to would definitely disagree with the opinion that it's not about sisterhood and a ritual that binds us. All that we do are sisterhood events and philanthropy, we're all there completely voluntarily. We do not have alcohol at our events, we don't party with fraternities. We share sisterhood with sisters who live in our geographic area, just because we want to. There are no mandatory events, but we're there anyway. And, just so that the collegians don't feel like they are singled out here, one alumnae chapter in our area used to have a regular road rally but had to stop, due to risk management issues, so it isn't just the face of the collegiate greek experience that is changing.

Dee
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  #97  
Old 09-11-2003, 11:43 PM
HotDamnImAPhiMu HotDamnImAPhiMu is offline
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Wow. I'm definatly going to have to agree with Dee on this one and say that I'm disappointed with some of the things that have been said so far.

So far:


*Let's stop kidding ourselves that sisterhood and brotherhood is something that has to be sealed in a ritual before it "counts."
*As we're reminded by so many GDIs, they can make friends on their own, and they don't need to pay for it.
*But the fact is that our biggest draw, as social organizations, are people who like to be social -- and as you pointed out, in the college environment, alcohol tends to be present as a social lubricant.
*I've thought a lot about alcohol free housing, and I hate it. For me, it wasn't an issue, because I was underage the entire time I lived in our house.

just to name a few.

Good lord. Is this really what y'all think about your sisterhood, about the greek system overall? Is this what you want to present to potential new members reading this board TODAY?
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  #98  
Old 09-11-2003, 11:45 PM
33girl 33girl is offline
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So what conclusions have we come to?

-We live in a suit-happy society
-If you screw up once, you will be hung out to dry
-We have to follow rules even if they don't help, or possibly harm, our members
-21 year olds should probably not live in Greek housing
-Rather than taking a stand against this garbage like the leaders we say we are, and declaring that our members are the most important thing, we fall in line like all the other sheep.

baaa baaa baaaaaaa.

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  #99  
Old 09-11-2003, 11:48 PM
HotDamnImAPhiMu HotDamnImAPhiMu is offline
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before somebody nails me to a wall --

I realize those statements were taken out of context. At the same time -- what're y'all THINKING?! If you joined your group to drink and party, you're on the wrong website.

It just upsets me to see sister/brotherhood take a backseat to what's established as "the college norm." When I pledged I had never had a drink, smoked a cigarette, had sex, or done drugs. And honestly, I don't think I was that "out there" -- I think the "college norm" is anything but. People have varying ideas of what they want to take away from college and what they want to experience.

Please, let's not strip things down to "what's really going on" when our true purpose on this board (and in our organizations) is to promote friendships. I realize y'all (and me too!) have extracurricular activities, but however you want to portray them -- they are NOT the primary focus of our respective GLOs.

I just think this discussion is getting misleading, and with so many potential new members -- and new pledges -- I worry.
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  #100  
Old 09-12-2003, 12:10 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Jacquelyn,

I don't think that there is a "college norm." My chapter sisters, as far as drinking/smoking/sex/whatever, went from one end of the spectrum to the other. The difference was that we respected each other's choices and put up with their human flaws. If someone never even kissed a guy, that was fine. If someone drank a little too much one night, we didn't ostracize her for the rest of the semester. Nowadays, it seems like people are saying "respect others and be diverse" on one hand, but implementing a more rigid standard of actual behavior on the other. The two don't mesh. (This is everything, by the way, not just Greeks. Be diverse, but you must be diverse in the RIGHT way. I think that, unfortunately, we've gotten caught up in the rhetoric.)

Maybe Susie joined her sorority for the parties and ended up winning the national award for outstanding service. I hate when people seem to be saying that if you don't join for the highest-minded of purposes, you will be a crappy sister - to me, that's like saying you are a better sister if you joined through formal instead of COB. It's not how you get there, it's what you do once you are in. It would be terrible if people who could really benefit from the support of a GLO feel as though they aren't welcome to join because they aren't perfect or because they want to try things like drinking, which, although it's not THE norm, is normal.
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  #101  
Old 09-12-2003, 12:52 AM
DeltAlum DeltAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by 33girl
So what conclusions have we come to?
How about, "Obey the law (whether it seems fair or not) and you'll probably be OK.

Or work to change it.
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  #102  
Old 09-12-2003, 10:27 AM
shadokat shadokat is offline
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AMEN TO THAT! Why is it so damn important to drink in the sorority or fraternity house? I will admit that I went to many a frat party/mixer/etc. in houses, but there are other ways to have social events without doing it inside the houses. How about instead of having a mixer every week, you do it once a month, and the money that you spend every week goes into a pot and pays for a bus to take all members to the mixer at the third party vendor? There are ways to have a GREAT time and also follow alcohol free housing. The fact of the matter is that those that are underage will have to follow the law!

I know I went to college in the mid 90s, when we pretty much partied most nights at fraternities and drank underage, etc. But unfortunately, the ways of the world have changed. The lawsuit happy society we live in is a product of these changes, and with that comes changes in the way our organizations have to cover their asses, plain and simple. And I can't say I blame one of them for doing so...I want a sorority for another 500 years.



Quote:
Originally posted by DeltAlum
How about, "Obey the law (whether it seems fair or not) and you'll probably be OK.

Or work to change it.
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  #103  
Old 09-12-2003, 10:34 AM
Nhfulmer Nhfulmer is offline
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Thank you Shadokat - well said! I wish I could get to some of these collegians who are posting - and a few alumni/aulnae. They need a good dose of reality. They need to accept that things have changed. As my husband keeps pointing out, one of the major problems that advisors/Nationals have to counteract is the fact that these drinking habits are often not learned AFTER they come to college but have already been formed in high school; therefore, it is not a matter of education but of REeducation.

I didn't drink in college (back in the dark ages) but I can sympathize with most of their points. Don't get me wrong - just because I sympathize doesn't mean I agree with them. Sorry kids - it's National's way or the highway!!
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  #104  
Old 09-12-2003, 11:05 AM
33girl 33girl is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeltAlum
Or work to change it.
EXACTLY.

18-21 year olds, get your asses to the polls and vote. Until you do, you will continue to get crapped on with things like young adult prohibition. (Of course you have to find a congressman with the balls to bring up repeal of the Federal Highway Funding Act...but that's another topic.)

When all the members of a household or organization are of age to have a certain right, rules that interfere with that right usually are eliminated. I certainly haven't seen any nationals passing rules against smoking.

http://www.youthrights.org/dafaq.html
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  #105  
Old 09-12-2003, 11:49 AM
rocketaxid rocketaxid is offline
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Edited because everyone missed the point. I attempted to address the reason for nationals stepping in the first place. Obviously that went over everyones heads...

Last edited by rocketaxid; 09-12-2003 at 12:48 PM.
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