Why are there no black members in Phi Kappa Psi? Another view

[GPhiBLtColonel]

...love your use of the Rodney King quote -- I use it ALL the time!
It speaks VOLUMES about so many of life's situations!!

[aopirose]

Two snaps and a figure eight to Sistermadly, kddani, sugar and spice and phikappapsiman!

[sigtau305]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by phikappapsiman

And I actually thank you, Blackwatch, for I am actually MORE proud than ever now to be a strong, independent, free-thinking Black Man, able to NOT be constrained by either side in determining who or what I should be. I mean, when one out of every three black college age men in America is in prison, just the fact that I am a college graduate means a hell of a lot to me. Add that to the fact that I am nobody's Baby Daddy yet, and I think that I am doing pretty well for myself. [QUOTE]


Well said, friend

[Blackwatch]

Originally posted by phikappapsiman
But since you do not know me personally, or my views, or what I was looking for in college, or the type of friends I like to associate with, you really have no place to judge me or my choice. I made the choice that I felt was the right choice FOR ME!

Actually, I really am not insinuating that I know what is right for you, but you stated in your original post that it was the best for you (your exact quote was that it was the"best organization for me"). I do not know you, but your insinuation was that Phi Kappa Psi was the best, which to me entailed you actually surveying other frats, including those in the NPHC and comming to a conclusion that they did not provide what Phi Kappa Psi did. I am not judging your decision at all, I just wanted information about what your fraternity does for you that none of the NPHC frats can do. Also, you never addressed my question about any institutional racial inequalities that are cured by African American men joining IFC frats? You stated that there were no racial issues at Stanford, but apparently racial issues and racial inequalities are two different things to you, but to me racial inequalities are racial issues, and joining IFC frats doesn't mean that there are no more "racial issues" on your or any yard. Which leads me to my next question. You stated:

Originally posted by phikappapsiman
Sure, I see that my parents are still involved in their respective organizations, and that is great FOR THEM. But you see, I have had many more opportunities than my parents had when they were attending college. They both attended Tennessee State University, which at that time was one of the few schools that blacks could attend. They raised me to believe that I could achieve what I wanted if I studied hard, and I was able to make that belief a reality by getting into, and graduating from Stanford. Am I any less black because I chose to do that? I think not.

Maybe others in the past have questioned your "blackness", but I assure you that I wasn't.
It seems to me that your history belies a lot of resentment. First, you insinuate some sort of "progress" by mentioning that you were able to get into and graduate from Stanford. Then you juxtapose this notion with the fact that your parents went to TSU and then possibly you imply that they went there because there were few choices for blacks at that time. I do not know your parents, but I have heard this argument before. Are you insinuating that your parents would have rather gone to Stanford than TSU if only they had the "better opportunities" that you have? Do you think that the people, who I like to call "Civil Rights Warriors" marched, got hosed, were beaten and even killed so that our generation could start looking down on our own institutions? Does it ever occur to you that maybe schools like TSU are better for black folks today than schools like Stanford? Case in point:

Originally posted by phikappapsiman
I mean, when one out of every three black college age men in America is in prison, just the fact that I am a college graduate means a hell of a lot to me. Add that to the fact that I am nobody's Baby Daddy yet , and I think that I am doing pretty well for myself.
"...who dat is??? It's just my baby daddy" [/B]

(emphasis added by me)

Any self respecting Black man with a "college degree" should well know about those statistics, but any truly educated (read empowered) black man would also understand that the source of these statistics is not some innate cultural trait of black men, many black men in the system are there for unjust reasons (think about the recent moratorium on the death penalty in Illinois and the central park jogger case). You see, our own institutions are concerned with why these racial inequalities persist, and do not assume that they exist because black people are culturally inept due to inferior choices born out of the fact that we do not have access to their (read white, or predominantly white) institutions. In other words, black folks are too undisciplined and hedonistic to succeed in this society, as evidenced by all the incarcerated black men and "baby daddies". Therefore, any black man that doesn't end up like this is "out of the ordinary". Any empowered black man would not look at graduating from Stanford to be more esteemed than graduating say from Morehouse or any other university IF we graduate thinking that we have done something special if we haven't become someone's "Baby Daddy" yet as if that is something you expect out of black people. If you were empowered by your education, you would understand that black people (and our own institutions) can take care of black people far better than any white institution wants you to believe. I went to school at Morehouse, predominantly white U of Memphis and I attend Mizzou now in grad school and I can tell you, the black students at Morehouse and Spelman were being better prepared for this racist society than the black students at Memphis or Mizzou, simply because those latter institutions were not concerned with the black students' development as Black people in this society. They are more concerned with making race a non-factor, only in word, but not deed, and then fooling the students into believing the ideal world is a color blind (read white) world where we have no "real" differences. Yet, it is these differences that characterize our lives. Because, contrary to what your brothers in Phi Kappa Psi may tell you, we are indelibly black people in a white supremacist society. This means that we have to spend time dealing with how this society attaches negative meaning to our blackness and how we are to prosper in that context WITHOUT HATING OUR OWN BLACKNESS!!!!!! (reread Souls of Black Folks) I am really perplexed as to why the issues of incarceration and "baby daddies" even entered into this discussion, unless these are images you feel are typical of black people, thereby, you feel you are not doing what the "typical" black man does by going to Stanford and graduating. As the responses to your reply from the caucasian GCers bear out, most white people are okay with these images, but I myself am offended. As an empowered black man, I understand those images to be part of a general racial project to further demean the truth about Black people, and are not really part of an empowered perception of our reality, and it doesn't even make for a funny joke.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

[sugar and spice]

Nothing new to add, but I just want to thank EVERYBODY (on both sides of the issue) that has responded to this post. Unlike a lot of the race-related posts on GC it has managed to stay away from hurtful personal attacks. I think everybody is posting really thought-provoking things, and I know that I, at least, have learned a lot from this topic -- I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Obviously there are a lot of complicated issues at play here and we aren't going to find the right "answers" just from this thread, if there are any "right answers" at all -- but having a dialogue like this where everyone is asking and discussing these important questions is definitely a step in the right direction.

Awesome job with these posts, everybody, and keep them coming.

[xp2k]

Blackwatch

I dont know if I can necessarily agree with all of your argument, you make some valid points, the one thing that I might disagree with is the notion that African Amercian students are better prepared for "the real world" by attending HBCU's then by attending typical, large university.

How is a young African American attending an HBCU, where they're the majority and live in the everyday comfort of people that they are accustomed to, better prepared to deal with racism?

By that logic, a wealthy white suburbanite student attending a small, inclusive college (i.e. students fitting that persons socioeconomic status) would be better prepared for diversity then one attending a large state school where they're forced to meet different people.

I admire HBCU's (I'm actually planning to go to Howard for Law School!!!), I think that the environment is a special one and that these institutions serve a special purpose in our nation's history and development. However, by attending a "great big state university", I have learned so much about white people, Asian people, Jewish people, African peoples, etc, etc, etc...and this is stuff that WILL help me in the real world, and this is stuff that I think you could only learn, by attending a large or at least a diverse institution.

The only way to "learn" how the real world works is to deal with it, head on.

It can get ugly, but the naive learn pretty quickly.

XP2k

[GPhiBLtColonel]

As the responses to your reply from the caucasian GCers bear out, most white people are okay with these images,

Huh????
And you know this because.......................

Everyone PLEASE stop the generalities!

How are we EVER gonna get past the Color of one's skin and just concentrate on the content of one's character if we all have chips on our shoulder like this????? I am offended by the statement that this is a racist society...when you say that Morehouse and Spelman grads are better equipped to deal with "this racist society," do you mean the barriers to coexistence are gonna be harder to overcome or what? I'm sorry but nothing is ever gonna get better with attitudes like that -- all black people are not alike, all white people are not alike, all women are not alike, all men are not alike etc etc etc...

No more generalities!

Just my 2cents or so.....

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by xp2k
How is a young African American attending an HBCU, where they're the majority and live in the everyday comfort of people that they are accustomed to, better prepared to deal with racism?

I've been asking myself the same thing. I attended a PWI (predominately white institution) undergraduate. For my first graduate degree, I attended an HBCU. I can honestly say that my experience at the PWI taught me more about how to deal with the day to day intricacies of subtle and overt racism than being at an HBCU could have ever shown me.

But then, to each his/her own. It takes all kinds to make a world.

[phikappapsiman]

You know what Blackwatch...

I had written a really long response to you, but you know what...I will just say thank you for your input, and I wish you well.

[14dst01]

Originally posted by collegeguy
Ok. I might ruffle a few feathers here, but I'm not too big on being PC. Now all of you are right when you say this young man has the right to join whatever fraternity he wants too. Its his life and he has to do what is best for him. But as some have said before, there are just fundamental differences between the NPHC and and NIC/NFC/IFC. I'll give you an example. I have a friend who is a member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Inc. ( she always has something to say when I don't put the Inc. at the end), and she went to their conference last summer where she met 40, 50, and even 60 year members of Delta. Now they aren't just members, they are just as much if not more active in their sorority now then they were when they became members. Now be honest, how many NIC/NFC/IFC members can say, 1) they attended their last national conference and 2) they have met ACTIVE members with over 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years of service in their organization in addition to service in the community in the name of your organization? Just because you know an woman/man who was in XYZ sorority/fraternity in college and they do community service doesn't mean that organization is active in the community. That means that person is helping the community. That is where the difference between NPHC vs non-NPHC organizations (NIC/NPC/IFC) lies. There's a difference between you doing service in the name of your organization and you doing service and being a part of an organization.
The bond you create and the committment you make to the community in in the name of your organization is a bond and committment for life, and I just don't see that same bond or committment after graduation in the NPC/NIC/IFC organizations. Thats what that young mans family was trying to get through to him. The people you cross with will most likely be your childrens godparents, your best man/maid of honor at your wedding, the one you can call at 4 in the morning when you need someone to talk to, the ones who 50 years down the road you can still depend on just as much as when you crossed, and are the ones you always see helping out in the community. Why? Because they don't take their pledge to their organization lightly. When asked, did you join a fraternity or sorority in college, you will never hear a Divine Nine member say, "Oh I used to be an AKA, Delta, Zeta, SGRho, Alpha, Kappa, Omega, Sigma, or Iota." They will say they are a member of that organization. Now I have heard non NPHC (not including other minority greek organizations) people say I was an XYZ when I was in college. Not gonna happen with black greeks. Its just different. Apples and oranges. This young mans parents knew hisroty and legacy of black greeks, and thats probably why they wanted him to join one of the 5 NPHC fraternities. Like someone said, it was more of an issue of NPHC vs non-NPHC and less of a black vs white issue. What I think people fail to understand is that black geek ties run deep. It goes deeper than just wanting your child to carry on a tradition. It's about wanting to further your bond with your child. To share common experiences with them. To not only be able to call them your child, but you brother/sister frat/soror, thats something special. To have them be a member of an organization that has been in the forefront of the black struggle for almost 100 years. To have them be a member of an organization that can claim members such as Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Jessie Jackson, Arthur Ashe, A. Philip Randolph, Bobby Rush, Maya Angelou, Wilma Rudoolph, Zora Neale Hurston, and Hattie McDaniel. To carry on that rich history and legacy, thats something people think about even before their child is born. Thats something parents are proud of even if they aren't greek. I have seen more grown black men cry a probates when they see their sons join their organization than anywhere else. Thats how important these organizations are to black people. Thats how deep their love for their organization runs. I think my friend put is best when she said, "When I became a Delta, I became a Delta for life. When I graduate I will still be a Delta. When I get married I will still be a Delta. When I have my children I will still be a Delta. And when I die I will still be a Delta and my robe in heaven better be Crimson and Creme." Its just different.

I was glad to read a post from someone who I could totally agree with. I hope our fellow WGLO members understand that it is ok to be different. Let's face the facts, NPHC orgs. are different crom IFC, NPC, etc. That's just the fact. Yes we are all greek but our history, founding, purposes, goals, etc. are different. That's not to say that one is better than the other (as collegeguy reiterated earlier).

I work in television and a lot of my co-workers joined a predominately white sorority/fraternity while in college. I say JOINED because that is exactly how they say it when we talk about frats/sororities at work. My co-workers already know that I'm in a sorority because I tell them I AM A DELTA. They know I'm active in my alumnae chapter because I talk about how last weekend we were building homes in the community in conjuction with Habitat for Humanity, they know this because I talk about our annual golf tournament we sponsor each year, they know this because I sold them tickets to our annual Martin Luther King, Jr. scholarship breakfast in January, they know I'm a Delta because of the numerous things our chapter does and how involved I am in the chapter. To be honest, I can't say the same thing about my white counterparts.

Now before you start replying and telling me all the things you're doing, let me just reiterate that I'm telling you information based off of the people I know and work with (and I'm not talking about 5 folks either). That also doesn't mean that anyone joining a NPC or IFC, etc, is not going to be active in their respective alumnae/alumni chapter. BUT, what I've noticed and this is solely based on my exeperience (I attended a predominately white university for 1 year and graduated from a HBCU), those who join PWGLO are only in it throughout their collegiate years. Once college ends, so does their involvement with their fraternity/sorority. One of my co-workers joined Alpha Sigma Alpha in college and said to me how impressed she was in what my chapter does in the community and how involved I am with the organization at an alumnae level. She said did try to look up an alumnae chapter to join but she just wasn't interested.

Bottomline, I am proud to be an African American woman and I'm just as proud to be a member (soon to be Diamond-life!!!) of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. Regardless of whether you are white or black or whether you joined a white, black or multicultural GLO, take pride in yourself and the organization you represent.

That is all...... (for now)

[DELTAQTE]

Originally posted by phikappapsiman
You know what Blackwatch...

I had written a really long response to you, but you know what...I will just say thank you for your input, and I wish you well.

Now how do we expect folks to UNDERSTAND each other if they won't even answer the question?

I have learned a lot in this thread and Blackwatch is asking you questions to be more enlightened, is it really that serious?

And I have to co sign that I work with quite a few people that always say "back in my college days I was XYZ" I am not trying to make a general statement, but it must be more common to hear it since we are all in different states saying the same thing.

Good thread!

QTE

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by DELTAQTE
Now how do we expect folks to UNDERSTAND each other if they won't even answer the question?

Because at some point, it becomes a bit like trying to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig.

But seriously - anecdotal stories about people who say "I used to be an XYZ" do not represent the level of activity for each and every NPC/NIC organization. Us non-NPHC folks seem to say that over and over, but no one seems to hear it, or they always counter it with "Well, Mary Jane on my job says blah-blah." Why is that? Why does it seem that we waste so much bandwidth trying to convince people who won't be convinced? I've known several people who, even though the oaths they made to their NPHC organizations were "for life", refer to their affiliation in the past tense. So does my anecdote carry any weight, or will it be dismissed because I'm in a NPC organization?

[zchi2]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
Because at some point, it becomes a bit like trying to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig.

But seriously - anecdotal stories about people who say "I used to be an XYZ" do not represent the level of activity for each and every NPC/NIC organization. Us non-NPHC folks seem to say that over and over, but no one seems to hear it, or they always counter it with "Well, Mary Jane on my job says blah-blah." Why is that? Why does it seem that we waste so much bandwidth trying to convince people who won't be convinced? I've known several people who, even though the oaths they made to their NPHC organizations were "for life", refer to their affiliation in the past tense. So does my anecdote carry any weight, or will it be dismissed because I'm in a NPC organization?

I see what you saying, but I NEVER heard someone who joined a NPHC group say "I used to be a AKA or DST..." What is wrong with admiring that aspect of the NPHC? That is why I'm still working with my organization because I would love for my organization to one day have that same respect as people have for the NPHC in my community. How many of non-NPHC can talk to people that didn't even go to college that knows what your organization is about? How many of you all that didn't have members of your family that were members of a greek organization, knew what sorority/fraternity you wanted to join back in high school? That is what it is like in my community.

I also don't see what is wrong for Blackwatch to ask someone why they joined a certain organization. I have been asked that question over and over and over again why I chose to join a multicultural sorority. I have no problem answering especially if someone did it as respectful as Blackwatch did.

[33girl]

Originally posted by zchi2
How many of non-NPHC can talk to people that didn't even go to college that knows what your organization is about? How many of you all that didn't have members of your family that were members of a greek organization, knew what sorority/fraternity you wanted to join back in high school? That is what it is like in my community.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but the black community in the US is smaller than the white community. There is also, well, more community in the black community.

oh, and I hate to make an aesthetic complaint, but if you are going to go on at length, please make paragraphs in your posts!!! It took me forever to get through this thread because the run-ons were giving me a headache.

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by zchi2
I see what you saying, but I NEVER heard someone who joined a NPHC group say "I used to be a AKA or DST..."

But you're missing my point -- the point is that for every anecdote, there's always a similar anecdote. I'm going to keep saying it until someone hears me: anecdotal evidence does not mean that something is a fact!

Us folks in the NPC/NIC have said time and time again in this thread (and elsewhere) that when we signed on the dotted line, we did it for life, but no matter how many times we say it, someone offers up an anecdote about someone who says "I was a...." as if that anecdote rules our commitments null and void! I'm really tired of it!

Think of all the anecdotes we've heard over the years about black men who are robbers/rapists/murderers. Yet none of us (meaning minority folks) would so much as think that ALL black men are like this. Why then is it okay to suggest that just because Mary Ann from Purchasing says "I used to be an Alpha Phi" that it means that everybody in the NPC/NIC feels like this? What is implied is "If Mary Ann said it then it must be like that all over" -- that's the perception that I get when I see it over and over again -- I can't speak for anyone else but myself.

That's a question I'd love to get an answer to, but as someone who's on both sides of the issue, I think I know why I'll never get a satisfactory answer. That's cool -- but I'm going to keep calling B.S. when I see it.

Oh, and as to why it's okay/not okay to ask someone to justify their choice: when you're asking that question of a minority person who decided to "go against the grain", what is unspoken is a suggestion that you've deserted "your people" by making that choice. The level of condescension and disapproval is subtle -- but it's there.