Will the Greek world ever desegregate?

[eightball]

Originally posted by dzrose93


Yeah, and it's been my observation that people who have been banned from GC and keep returning under new screennames to make trouble are desperate attention-seekers.

Yeah, and it's been my observation that certain people just can't stay on topic.

[dzrose93]

[i]Originally posted by VirtuousErudite

Do you honestly believe that these women are going to come out and say "We discriminated against her, we don't like blacks, and we don't want them in our group".

Honestly, what type of concrete evidence do you want? I sitting here baffled wondering what will it take.

And just so you know, they didn't have to ignore her or treat her with ill will. I'm sure in your life you have had people smile in your face and talk about you like a dog when you turn you back at least once.

Just something to consider. [/B]

How many times do I have to say it??? I'm not saying the girl wasn't discriminated against. I have no way of knowing if she was -- and y'all have no way of knowing if she wasn't.

ONCE AGAIN, for those of you who aren't familiar with NPC Rush, there are a million and one reasons why someone might not receive a bid. Why is it so hard for y'all to comprehend that there just MIGHT be another reason for Twilley not getting one????

I've said that discrimination **may** have been the cause -- I'm certainly not denying that racism isn't dead. To state that Greek organizations (black and white alike) never discriminate would be a bald-faced lie. But many NPC members on GC have clearly and repeatedly pointed out that it could just as easily have been something else entirely. So, why is it so hard for y'all to admit that Twilley MIGHT be wrong in her assumption that race was the issue? It seems that everyone wants me to say, "Oh yeah, she was definitely discriminated against." I'm sorry, but that would be very presumptuous of me and I'm not prepared to make such an uneducated assumption considering that I wasn't involved in Alabama's NPC Rush process when Twilley went through.

Other than the nominating committees in each house, no one knows for sure - not even Twilley - why a bid wasn't given out. I realize that the fact that Twilley is black makes the whole incident seem suspicious to a lot of people, but it seems like some of you are completely close-minded to the fact that race MIGHT not have played a part in the decision to cut her from Rush.

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by eightball


Yeah, and it's been my observation that certain people just can't stay on topic.

Grow up, SH80. I find it extremely ironic that you're in this thread making comments about the evils of racism when you've been banned from GC numerous times for your own racist comments.

How's that for staying on topic, dear?

[ChaosDST]

AGREED.

Originally posted by FuzzieAlum
I think it's important to remember here that while most sororities were founded by women of Christian faith, not all subscribe to _specifically_ Christian ideas. (I'm sure the same is true of fraternities.) I suppose ideas such as friendship, love, philanthropy, etc. fit into the Judeo-Christian ethic, they are not exclusive to it. On the other hand, swearing to Jesus would be specifically Christian.

To be honest, I am not a Christian or religious at all. As such, I nearly walked out of my Order of Omega initiation because it asked me to swear to something I was not comfortable with. I stuck with it (and our Greek life advisor approved) because it was "only" an honor society. If a certain belief was core to it, it should have been expressed earlier than this point in the ceremony!

However - GLOs have open creeds that express their beliefs fairly well. It's your responsibility as a rushee and a new member to find out what you are getting into. If you can't comfortably swear to what the sorority is about, it doesn't matter how much you like the members - you should be looking elsewhere.

[FuzzieAlum]

Other than the nominating committees in each house, no one knows for sure - not even Twilley - why a bid wasn't given out.

OK, dumb question - what is a nominating committee? I think every sorority has a different way of selecting new members. In some houses every girl may know why someone didn't get a vote. Elsewhere, very few people will know.

But all of this, even my own question in the above graf, does not really answer the question - will the Greek world desegragate?

OK - it's more desegregated now that it was 75 years ago. And even today it varies from campus to campus and region to region. I believe it will become more desegregated in the future. Greek life is to some extent a microcosm of society. As long as society at large is still fairly segregated, so too will be Greek organizations.

[Alias23]

dzrose93--

"I'm certainly not denying that racism is dead."

I think you may have mis-typed here (at least I hope so).


I issued a response to you that ended up on the previous page (I wanted to make sure you didn't miss it).

Type to you soon!

[ChaosDST]

You're right, she's definitely correct in raising the question. I think after she (or anyone else) finds the answers to the question they should seek membership elsewhere if they can't come to grips with whatever the ideals of that organization may be. You like the Burger King analogy...LOL

Originally posted by Cream

LOL! Burger King Have it your way!
I didn't read that A.D. had a PROBLEM with Christian ideals. I will quote from the article. She asked a sister, "Do you do Christian prayers? I don't want any part of that." I can completely understand that. She didn't want to take an oath to a sorority that contradicted her religion. She also indicated that she liked the diversity of Alpha Gamma Delta. In case I was unclear, I think that it was smart of A.D. to raise the question in order to be fully informed about her decision to join the sorority rather than discover it was going to be a problem after or during initiation.

[ChaosDST]

LOL@the Martin Luther King reference and "Amen walls" to the rest of your post.


Greek Love,
1913

Originally posted by carnation
ChaosDST, you got my point exactly. I don't believe in restricting membership due to race or religion, far from it!

In the case of the camp, this "kid" was one of the counselors. Why did she apply to be a counselor at a Christian camp if she was going to spend the summer protesting everything Christian?

And in the case of Alison Davis, it's fine if she wanted to join a historically Christian sorority but she should realize that in the case of many of the Christian sororities, there were Christian rituals and customs set in place long before she came around that she shouldn't ask to have set aside if she joined. In some of the GC threads about non-blacks in BGLOs, many BGLO members have replied that it was fine with them as long as the PNMs realized that they were founded for certain reasons and that the majority of their focus would be on the black community. Thus, I wouldn't go up to a member of a BGLO and say, "If I join, I won't have to put up with anyone mentioning Martin Luther King Day service projects, will I?"

No one should expect to have cherished traditions swept away for their benefit. No new member is worth that.

[dzrose93]

Thanks for the heads up on my typo, Alias... I just fixed it.

I didn't see your post on the previous page... I appreciate you letting me know about it -- I'll check it out and respond in the A.M.

[Tom Earp]

The most Profound answer to this never ending queston is::::

Yes, No, and Maybe!

[ChaosDST]

Thanks for updating us. Conversation without the necessary information is a waste of time. Am I surprised or appalled by what I just read? Nah...most of us (especially those who are often targeted by discrimination) are well aware of such things...we're just waiting for everyone else to catch up and acknowledge it.

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Apparently Allison Davis WAS NOT the only sorority member to hear inappropriate remarks, but the only one to speak out.......

Blacks Need Not Apply

An incident in Georgia shows how little has changed among segregated college sororities

BY TIMOTHY ROCHE/ATLANTA

When a black college freshman applied to join Alpha Gamma Delta at the University of Georgia last August, most members of the all-white sorority were horrified. As they gathered inside their neoclassical mansion to discuss the new applicants, the sisters of AGD singled out the black freshman and talked about her separately. "Why does she want to go through white rush?" asked a sorority member. Another warned, "If we had a black girl in our sorority, none of the fraternities would want to do anything with us."Their remarks so outraged one member, Ali Davis, that she filed a racial-discrimination complaint with university officials, who temporarily suspended AGD while they investigated. What they found was not so much a surprise as a shameful reminder that in the three decades since America's public was desegregated, the Greek social organizations at the University of Georgia, as at many colleges all over the U.S., remain bastions of racial exclusivity--and often bigotry.Although Georgia's population is 28% black, as are 6% of the students at the university's main campus in Athens, few blacks are members of the 42 historically white fraternities and sororities there. The Greek organizations and the university declined to provide a racial breakdown but say that some blacks do belong to white sororities or fraternities. Examining this pattern after years of looking the other way "has been painful, as holding a mirror up often is," says Richard Mullendore, the school's vice president of student affairs.Davis, the sophomore fashion-merchandising student who filed the discrimination complaint, says some of her sorority sisters who knew the black teenager had spoken highly of her--until it came time to assess this year's pledges. "There was an undercurrent of unspoken racism," says Davis. Most of her sorority sisters, she says, voted not to admit the black freshman, who has not been named.Another student, Alana Young, a Filipino American, says she left the sorority in 1998 because of racist attitudes. She overheard a sister say she had been taught that "n_____s work in the house and Mexicans work in the yard." Young says she saw a Mexican-American member of the sorority leave a meeting in tears after the sisters overruled her objection to putting a Confederate flag on a T shirt. Young finally quit after sorority members criticized her for giving her phone number to a black football player.To investigate Davis' allegations, the sorority's national office sent a team that included Atlanta civil rights lawyer Mason Barge. He says the team found no hint of racism: "There was no evidence other than one girl's statement." The local sorority chapter agreed last month to offer racial sensitivity training to its members in exchange for not being disciplined by the university. The sorority still has no black members and is not required to accept any. Out of about 1,000 applicants this year, Barge says, the freshman was the only black. Because the sorority uses campus facilities, it is subject to the federal law that prohibits racial discrimination in higher education. But disciplinary action can be taken only if the sorority is proven to discriminate overtly. Having no black members is not considered proof.Philo Hutcheson, an education professor at Georgia State University in Atlanta, says that among white Greek organizations "there are examples all across the country of things like blackface minstrel shows and slave auctions...These are overt statements of racism, and they happen in the North as much as in the South." Efforts to integrate white fraternities and sororities are made more difficult, Hutcheson says, because blacks often self-segregate in their own Greek organizations.Some schools say they're trying to change this pattern. At the University of Alabama, where none of the 37 traditionally white fraternities and sororities have ever had a black member, the white groups last month moved the date of their rush week, hoping to attract more pledges of all races. Membership in sororities and fraternities increased 14%, but no blacks wound up applying to white organizations. The University of North Carolina offers diversity training to its student groups. So does the University of Virginia. But only a handful of blacks have tried to join the white Greek organizations at those universities.Feeling ostracized, Ali Davis withdrew from the University of Georgia and moved home to Tennessee. Her whistle blowing, however, has caused a dialogue on campus. A group of black and white students put together a two-hour forum on race called "Break the Silence." Two weeks ago, they held a multicultural fashion show. It was arranged by Chi Chi Patrick, an African-American who was recently elected homecoming queen.

[Alias23]

"OK - it's more desegregated now that it was 75 years ago. And even today it varies from campus to campus and region to region. I believe it will become more desegregated in the future. Greek life is to some extent a microcosm of society. As long as society at large is still fairly segregated, so too will be Greek organizations." -- FuzzieAlum


Very true.

Successful integration requires hard work and tolerance for differences, which many people don't have. Our younger generations will live in an even more diverse society, so people must become more tolerant of differences and accept them even when they can't relate (they must also realize and accept the fact that they sometimes can't relate). This is difficult, but imperitive for progress in race relations (and other relations as well).

[Optimist Prime]

Okay....I know I'm going to catch flack for this one, but here goes...

Every organisation in American Universities, unless they were founded to be distintly not so, are HISTORICALLY Christian. Because, untill recently when people are reclaiming their faith, it just ended up that way. Did founders mean to bring Jesus and the Cross into things? Some did I guess, but not all. Alot of the Christian things were nominal only. Its what you had to do to look good. That sounds bad, but its how things were. Then Jewish people wanted no part of that. Some started intentionally Jewish orgs or intentionaly non sectarian orgs. Most of the Historicaly/nonimaly christian orgs have sence just embrased god, not jesus, and changed a little bit of languge (not substance of ritual) in order not to offend anyone. Because religious creed should be a limiting factor in membership of anyglo, I don't think religion should be a starting point either. It only leads to closemindedness.

[FuzzieAlum]

Most of the Historicaly/nonimaly christian orgs have sence just embrased god, not jesus, and changed a little bit of languge (not substance of ritual) in order not to offend anyone.

Really? I never heard that my sorority has. I don't know what any other fraternity or sorority has done to their ritual, and furthermore it's probably none of my business.

[VirtuousErudite]

Originally posted by dzrose93


How many times do I have to say it??? I'm not saying the girl wasn't discriminated against. I have no way of knowing if she was -- and y'all have no way of knowing if she wasn't.

ONCE AGAIN, for those of you who aren't familiar with NPC Rush, there are a million and one reasons why someone might not receive a bid. Why is it so hard for y'all to comprehend that there just MIGHT be another reason for Twilley not getting one????

I've said that discrimination **may** have been the cause -- I'm certainly not denying that racism isn't dead. To state that Greek organizations (black and white alike) never discriminate would be a bald-faced lie. But many NPC members on GC have clearly and repeatedly pointed out that it could just as easily have been something else entirely. So, why is it so hard for y'all to admit that Twilley MIGHT be wrong in her assumption that race was the issue? It seems that everyone wants me to say, "Oh yeah, she was definitely discriminated against." I'm sorry, but that would be very presumptuous of me and I'm not prepared to make such an uneducated assumption considering that I wasn't involved in Alabama's NPC Rush process when Twilley went through.

Other than the nominating committees in each house, no one knows for sure - not even Twilley - why a bid wasn't given out. I realize that the fact that Twilley is black makes the whole incident seem suspicious to a lot of people, but it seems like some of you are completely close-minded to the fact that race MIGHT not have played a part in the decision to cut her from Rush.

I totally agree that race may not have played a part, but I guess you can say that my viewpoint is skewed because I have PERSONALLY witnessed racism play a huge part in the selection or the lack their of , of two of the freshman guys I work with one last year and one this school year. You said you needed hard evidence, I am honestly wondering what would suffice, signed confession, hidden camera audio/video tape, racial slurs written on the walls? Ok, that one was a little far fetched but seriously what would serve as hard evidence??????