E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Essentially, it's a relic of the fact that students will have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility, so the reduction takes place both yearly and overall.

That makes sense.

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

What about walk-ons with academic scholarships?

[33girl]

As a player, I would just be awfully worried about getting fed a line and then getting there and sitting on the bench. Scholarship or not.

agzg - good question. I would think that an academic scholarship wouldn't be "penalized."

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

What about walk-ons with academic scholarships?

There are pretty strict rules about this - essentially, walk-ons can only earn academic scholarships when the school can prove that the scholarship was given based purely on merit (unrelated to athletics), and that the award was no more (or, I guess, less) than what other comparable students received.

Obviously the academic scholarship is tied to academic standing, and not football.

So-called "outside scholarships" (33's "Good-hearted citizen" in this instance - basically anything given by entities other than the school) are VERY strongly policed - they are the easiest source of impermissible benefits, obviously.

As far as "poaching" players/lying to players - there's apparently something of a "gentleman's agreement*" among B10 coaches (and some that know O'Brien from the wayback) not to contact athletes directly, but that any athlete that expresses interest in a specific program can be accepted. So basically, no recruiting within the conference - obviously outside groups ("Smoke weed/ talk shit like Lane Kiffin" --Lil Weezy) aren't beholden, and if you didn't see USC's press conference love letter to Silas Redd you should check it out. However, it's essentially the same as 'regular' recruiting, except the player has gone through however many years of workouts and can make an even better determination of how the depth chart etc. look.

*May not apply to Urban Meyer

[WhiteRose1912]

Jerry Sandusky voicemails to "Victim 2" released by lawyers who plan to sue Penn State

A man who claims he was "Victim 2" - the boy assaulted in a Penn State shower by Jerry Sandusky - intends to sue the university for its "egregious and reckless conduct," his lawyers said Thursday.

The lawyers said in a statement they have gathered "overwhelming evidence" of the abuse, and they released recordings of two voicemails they say were from Sandusky last year, both saying "love you" to the victim.

The voicemails are dated Sept. 12 and Sept. 19, 2011, less than two months before the former assistant coach was arrested on child sex abuse charges.

The second voicemail asks whether Victim 2 would like to attend Penn State's next game.

Sandusky left "numerous" voicemails for their client in the fall of 2011, the attorneys said.

(more at the article)


Transcripts:
September 12, 2011:

Transcription:
"…Jere. Um. I am probably not going to be able to get a hold of anybody. Um. Uh. Probably ought to just go forward. Uh. I would be very firm and express my feelings, uh, upfront. Um. But, uh, you know, there is nothing really to hide so. Um. If you want, give me a call. You can call me on my other cell phone or on this one, either one so. Alright, take care. Love you. Uh. Hope you get this message. Thanks."


September 19, 2011:

Transcription:
"…Just calling to see you know whether you had any interest in going to the Penn State game this Saturday. Uh. If you could get back to me and let me know, uh, I would appreciate it and when you get this message, uh, give me a call and I hope to talk to you later. Thanks. I love you."

[als463]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.

[DrPhil]

Penn State loses its first player.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by als463

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.

I will agree with this.

I didn't realize the "Power of Penn State" until I started looking into the school. I grew up in New England, which has many great schools. And yes, students there obviously have school pride, but there is something different about PSU.

I don't know if other colleges and universities do this, but I was living in NH, and my mom saw an ad in the newspaper for a Penn State presentation (for prospective students) being held at a local hotel. There were many high school students in attendance, and those that gave the presentation were so excited about Penn State. This is also where I learned about PSU's 20 campuses and all they had to offer.

A few months after I was accepted, I received an invitation in the mail to a BBQ - a family in NH holds a big party every summer, and they invite all of the incoming freshmen, and their families, in the tri-state area. My mom and I were a bit shocked by how into Penn State everyone was, and we KNEW that about half of these students' parents were Penn State alumni. They held a Penn State trivia game, and my mom and I looked clueless, as everyone else was yelling out answers to questions that we didn't even understand.

And I can't even tell you how many times I heard "WE ARE.. PENN STATE!" yelled that day.

When I finally got to PA, I was shocked at how into Penn State EVERYONE was. Young kids, teenagers, adults, parents, grandparents, etc. I worked in a small law firm after I graduated, and 3 different employees had season tickets to the games.. one of which didn't even like football - she just enjoyed the energy of the stadium, and the students. I had visited a few of my friends' parents houses around Christmas time each year, and ALL of them had Penn State-themed trees. With so many campuses all around the state, everyone lived and breathed that school.

Pennsylvania basically = Penn State

I live in NJ now, and I see more Penn State stickers on cars than I do any other school. The bars around here have more Penn State memorabilia in them than other universities, and I frequently run into alumni groups out in public that get together to watch the games.

It's not all about football. Even the love that people had for Joe Paterno wasn't all about football. There's a reason his name was attached to scholarships and awards, and it wasn't because he won a ton of football games.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not condoning whatever he may have done, and if he definitely knew about Sandusky's actions, he sure as hell should have done something about it. However, the reason people put him on a pedestal wasn't just because he taught his players how to win football games.

I have no doubt that current players will leave (as evidenced in DrPhil's latest post), but I wouldn't be quick to assume that every parent would turn their child away from playing there. I've definitely seen the power of Penn State.

..NOT to be confused with the power of the football team.

[honeychile]

^ One very important correction. Many Pennsylvanians live in "mixed marriages", where one spouse went to PSU, the other to Pitt. The rivalry between the two is incredible. So, it's more like:

Most of Pennsylvania = Penn State

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by als463

The only thing I want to add to this is that you would be very surprised by how many parents who are part of a long history of Penn State Alumni would actually stand behind their child if they chose to stay. I say this because I have talked to numerous Penn State Alumni who have had their children get offers from schools that I see as having much better academics (though I bleed blue and white and am completely proud of my alma mater) than Penn State and turn them down to attend PSU. In fact, I have a sorority sister who attended another university where she pledged our sorority. She married a Penn State Alum and she really wants to see her daughter (who is under age 10) go to PSU and join my chapter. I LOVE that idea and will be the first one in line wanting to write her daughter, who is a sweetheart, a rec. I'm just saying that people give birth thinking, "Yep, this is a future Nittany Lion." I say this to show how deep it goes. Before anyone assumes this is because people are all about the "football" aspect of Penn State, it has much more to do with it than that. The degrees I hold in certain programs rank very high in the country. Academics are a major aspect of it.

I don't mean to sound snarky, but the line you highlighted was not referring to any parent of any child going to Penn State. I was responding to a question 33girl had asked about whether future football players whose parents had ties to Penn State might be willing to turn down football scholarships at other schools and instead choose to go to Penn State and play football without a scholarship, so while the story about your sorority sister is sweet (and I mean that sincerely), unless her daughter is a future Division I scholarship level football kicker - it's not really relevant.

Neither are points about regular students who get academic scholarships or grants to other schools and choose to go to Penn State instead. I'm sure there are many Penn State parents who would prefer their children stay at or go to Penn State even if they have scholarships to other schools because that is a sentiment common to alums at many schools. Likewise, there are students at many schools who have turned down scholarships at other schools because they had long-standing parental ties, religous ties, state ties or a personal emotional ties to the schools they chose. None of this is unique to Penn State.

Again, what I stated was that I thought it unlikely a Penn State alum who had a son that was capable of playing Division I Big 10 football on a scholarship would encourage that child turn down other division I football scholarships to schools with equal or superior football and/or academic traditions in order to go play football at Penn State on no scholarship given the sanctions the football program will be under.

First, there are a limited number of Penn State alums that have male children capable of getting division I football scholarships and playing at a competitive level in the Big 10. For the few that do fit that description this could mean saddling themselves or their parents with considerable debt (particularly if they are OOS), but more importantly, if they had any NFL aspirations at all (and most do), they would be knowingly putting those aspirations at risk given Penn State football's current situation.

If the kid doesn't particularly want to go to the NFL or doesn't think they have a shot, and if their parents can afford it without incurring major debt then I can certainly see them making that choice, but that's a very small group and it won't be enough to help the football program much - which was my point.

[33girl]

ASTalumna06 summed it up. You really can't understand it unless/until you live here. And for a lot of PSU students and alumni, it has ZERO to do with football or the coach (past, present or future).

I think a big part of it is that so many businesses in the state (like the steel mills) have been lost, and Penn State is still booming and then some.

[knight_shadow]

Do we really think that dedication to a flagship university is unique to Pennsylvania/Penn State?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Do we really think that dedication to a flagship university is unique to Pennsylvania/Penn State?

No, not at all. I'm sure we'd be having the same discussion if this had happened at Ole Miss (random example). I do think it's different from state to state, though. So many people have had to leave PA because of the job situation.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by 33girl

No, not at all. I'm sure we'd be having the same discussion if this had happened at Ole Miss (random example). I do think it's different from state to state, though. So many people have had to leave PA because of the job situation.

Right. I was going to say -- take a stroll through College Station if you think "you have to live in Pennsylvania to understand it"

But, to be frank, the job situation doesn't really have anything to do with this situation. A job market didn't touch those kids. A university didn't touch those kids. A sick man did. I understand that the 24-hour news cycle has a lot to do with this, but it's a bit excessive now.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Right. I was going to say -- take a stroll through College Station if you think "you have to live in Pennsylvania to understand it"

But, to be frank, the job situation doesn't really have anything to do with this situation. A job market didn't touch those kids. A university didn't touch those kids. A sick man did. I understand that the 24-hour news cycle has a lot to do with this, but it's a bit excessive now.

You misunderstood what I'm trying to say.