Dr. Henry Louis Gates Arrested

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Aren't you in law school? This really may have very little bearing on the case - it may influence views on the officer's credibility, but if you know anything at all about witness credibility, you'd realize cops . . . have it. Implicitly. I'm not certain the "legal" ramifications of not giving your badge number include "throwing out the case" in this situation - are you?



Notice you left out "tumultuous" . . . is there a reason for that? Are you sure that a man yelling at a cop in his front yard causes no alarm?

Additionally, words can certainly escalate to the point where these definitions could be met. You're just saying "they didn't" without any real support is unconvincing.



You're not "saying" that - you're "showing" that, in every thread. You've never taken anything but a contrarian stance against those who bring up anything to suggest an incident might not have the explicit racial overtones you give it.

Tumultuous was not left out on purpose. That was an oversight on my part. And to answer your question, I don't think his behavior was cause for alarm. I have seen far worse behavior from individuals who were in the presence of cops, and they were not arrested. The cop went overboard and now his refusals to apologize are making him look even more suspect. as an officer of the law he should be held to a higher standard. At the very least he could apologize and be the bigger person. That would go a long way towards helping his case. since he is some kind of instructor on racial profiling his apology could simply be that he did not make Dr. Gates feel as though he was the victim of racial profiling, and that he simply was responding to a call. Doing that would not kill him. Instead he is continuing to be a bit of a jerk about it. This shows a complete lack of sensitivity.

As for your question about the cop ID information, I did not mean for you to interpret my statement as saying that was the reason it was thrown out. My point was that they not only threw the case out because they couldn't maintain the charge, but also because they were hoping to avoid having him file a complaint because the officer did not comply with his request.


Finally, while words CAN escalate to the point where those "requirements" are met, the key word is CAN. There is still nothing to indicate that this is what happened. Despite the fact that there are hundreds of accounts of what happened, the fact remains is that the only thing they have been able to say was that Dr. Gates repeatedly asked for the officer's information and was angry. He didn't hit anyone, he didn't swing at anyone, and he didn't do anything that they could point to that created a hazardous environment.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

The cop went overboard and now his refusals to apologize are making him look even more suspect. as an officer of the law he should be held to a higher standard. At the very least he could apologize and be the bigger person.

Some would argue that Gates went overboard, too. And I've yet to hear him apologize. As a highly educated man, he should be held to a higher standard. At the very least, Gates could apologize and be the bigger person. (See what I did there?)

I don't think the cop was in the wrong any more than Gates was. And if the police officer is chastised for refusing to apologize, then Gates should be as well. Works both ways.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

As for your question about the cop ID information, I did not mean for you to interpret my statement as saying that was the reason it was thrown out. My point was that they not only threw the case out because they couldn't maintain the charge, but also because they were hoping to avoid having him file a complaint because the officer did not comply with his request.


Finally, while words CAN escalate to the point where those "requirements" are met, the key word is CAN. There is still nothing to indicate that this is what happened. Despite the fact that there are hundreds of accounts of what happened, the fact remains is that the only thing they have been able to say was that Dr. Gates repeatedly asked for the officer's information and was angry. He didn't hit anyone, he didn't swing at anyone, and he didn't do anything that they could point to that created a hazardous environment.

Good post, I agree with basically everything you've said here - I still think it's important to point out where our platitudes fail, and anecdotal evidence sucks, but I like the explanation you've given here.

[agzg]

Am I correct to assume that the nieghborhood is affluent? If so, I would understand why the police would respond whether or not the "suspects" were black or white.

[Kevin]

As to whether she would have helped, I dunno... that's pure conjecture. If that's the hypo folks need to go with so they can talk about the travesty of race relations in this country, I suppose that's fantastic.

Reading the report and assuming, for the sake of argument that it's true (police telling lies in police reports is not exactly uncommon), Gates was behaving in a completely unreasonable manner. Even if he did think he was being discriminated against, berating the officer who is only responding to a call is not the way to handle that.

This whole thing reminds me of an old Chris Rock Show bit about "How Not to Get Your Ass Kicked by the Police." NSFW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

As to whether she would have helped, I dunno... that's pure conjecture. If that's the hypo folks need to go with so they can talk about the travesty of race relations in this country, I suppose that's fantastic.

When discussing social dynamics, since this isn't about the facts of this incident, there is no expectation of accurate conclusions on either side of the issue. It is a discussion that is rooted in observed patterns of social interaction. We don't know with absolute certainty that this was not about race and they don't know with absolute certainty that this was about race. And it really doesn't matter for the sake of discourse since none of us (hopefully...in this thread) are emotional and planning on staging a coup d'etat in response to this incident.

[SydneyK]

What makes the situation even more interesting is that the arresting officer is a police academy expert on racial profiling.

The more I read about this, the more inappropriate Obama's statement becomes. And the less convincing Gates' side of the story becomes, as well.

[DrPhil]

What is disorderly conduct and whether or not the person will get arrested depends on the circumstances and the officer's discretion.

I've seen some pretty ridiculous people who weren't violent with officers but were difficult and called the officers everything but a Child of God and the officers did not arrest them.

Sooooo...discussing why Gates was seen as disorderly enough to be arrested is accurate. Age and other factors play a role in officer discretion.

ETA: I'm not saying he should or should not have been arrested. I wouldn't see the funny arrest photo had he not been arrested.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

What is disorderly conduct and whether or not the person will get arrested depends on the circumstances and the officer's discretion.

I've seen some pretty ridiculous people who weren't violent with officers but were difficult and called the officers everything but a Child of God and the officers did not arrest them.

Sooooo...discussing why Gates was seen as disorderly enough to be arrested is accurate. Age and other factors play a role in officer discretion.

ETA: I'm not saying he should or should not have been arrested. I wouldn't see the funny arrest photo had he not been arrested.

I think Gates was arrested so in the moment it would be clear who was the alpha male, which of course is not a good reason to arrest someone, but it probably doesn't have that much to do with Gates's race, IMO.

ETA: I think you are right that it's an officers call and it's unfortunate that Gates was, in my opinion based on what I've read, actually troublesome enough to be arrested and that the officer didn't just politely leave once he established that Gates's house wasn't being burglarized. Either guys handling the situation differently could have avoided this, now high profile situation.

The whole would-the-neighbor-have-called-the-cops-if-the-people-opening-the-door-were-white is probably open for debate, but since the answer is that it would be a good idea generally for people to do so (I'd like my neighbors to call the cops if they see people of any race forcing my door open), and she did do so in this case, it doesn't seem as racially charged to me as it might.

I just don't see this as being a good case to use to start a national discussion of race and police behavior. It might be a far better case to discuss the role of political influence in getting various legal outcomes.

[Kevin]

FWIW, I've consulted with people charged with disorderly conduct. I can appreciate the city's point of view. My advice to the client in every case was that my legal fee would be higher than their ticket and that they could either represent themselves and probably get convicted by the municipal judge or they could go down to the city and write a check filling out a nolo contendre plea.

At any rate, DeepImpact, no, you don't have a right to privacy in your identity, especially when an officer has probably cause to think you're committing a burglary. In this case, there was P.C. because a neighbor said that there were two black men with backpacks forcing their way into a house. Fixate all you want on the racial aspect, but that's P.C. regardless of race.

Like KSig said, unless there's some special rule in that jurisdiction which I'm aware of, what are you basing Gates' right to the badge number of the officer he was dealing with?

Based on the facts presented, the officer's report indicates that a prima facie case for disorderly conduct existed.

As to why that comment about the officer's mama would be so hard to invent, put yourself in that situation... now, imagine yourself trying to put words into the mouth of a suspect you're arresting. A 58-year-old prof at Harvard and you invent a "Yo mama" phrase? Either the officer is incredibly racist or he's telling the truth. Judging from his history in the department, he's probably telling the truth.

[knight_shadow]

Just when I thought this thread couldn't become more of a trainwreck.

Yay.

[DrPhil]

Welcome back, madmax.

[SWTXBelle]

Salon - The Explainer

http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by madmax374

Gates is an idiot. The officers are required to have their name and badge number on their uniform. Gates is complaining that the police did not provide info that was right in front of his face.

Idiot you say? What's your experience with idiots?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Idiot you say? What's your experience with idiots?

For him:

An idiot would recognize an idiot and he is on very familiar ground at calling one out.

That's not to say that he's right however.