DELTA UPSILON IN THE PHILIPPINES

[rufio]

no official news. just gossip, rumors and hearsay

[SAEalumnus]

Originally Posted by rufio

i heard the topic tabled to the 16th. but this is all info i've just overheard, nothing official.

Any updates?

[rufio]

not that i'm aware of.

[rslpac1]

Greetings all,

I've been reading the DU in the Phillipines thread, and thought I would add some interesting information.

Though I'm not one to pass judgement, I thought I'd share with you what would hypothetically happen if something like this happened in Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia Fraternity, a Men's Music Fraternity in the USA of which I am a proud brother. Please don't mistake this as passing judgement on anything going on - just wanted to share with you would would probably happen if something like this happened with Sinfonia.

First and Foremost colonization and chartering of chapter of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia can only be done through the consent and approval of the National Fraternity. This is regardless of geography, be it in Alaska, Hawaii, or 10 minutes from our HQ in Indiana.

Any entity that uses our name and rituals without the approval of the fraternity would probably receive a stop and desist communication from our National HQ/Officers, followed by an investigation by the fraternity, and possible legal action. Especially if a group got fed up with waiting and found some way to be initiated anyway - this is a violation of many rules and regulations that the fraternity has and would be cause for the disbandment of the group looking to join the fraternity.

Any collegiate group that wants to form a chapter of Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia must go through the colonization process. Only collegiate chapters are authorized to initiate members; this is strictly enforced as alumni associations nor colonies can not initiate. When a colony becomes a chapter they are initiated by another collegiate chapter (a "big brother" chapter). Only active, chartered chapters in good standing with the fraternity may initiate new members.

This is our colonization process:
http://www.sinfonia.org/Resources/Gu...%20Program.pdf

(FYI - I am a president of an alumni association and have served Sinfonia in many different leadership positions.)

I hope this was informative and helpful. Please keep in mind that this is only my best guess what would happen if my fraternity was presented with the same issues as faced by Delta Upsilon. I hope everything is resolved in a peaceful and logical manner.

Fraternally,
Rich L.
Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia Fraternity of America (www.sinfonia.org)
President, NYCAA
Gamma Alpha '92

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by rslpac1

Any entity that uses our name and rituals without the approval of the fraternity would probably receive a stop and desist communication from our National HQ/Officers, followed by an investigation by the fraternity, and possible legal action. Especially if a group got fed up with waiting and found some way to be initiated anyway - this is a violation of many rules and regulations that the fraternity has and would be cause for the disbandment of the group looking to join the fraternity.

Hey Rich, and welcome to GreekChat!

I get what you're saying in the quoted part above. The problem is that when, as here, the group in question is in another country (on the other side of the world, no less), realistically, from a legal and financial standpoint, a fraternity's options to investigate and take legal action are going to be very limited.

Fraternally,

[naraht]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Hey Rich, and welcome to GreekChat!

I get what you're saying in the quoted part above. The problem is that when, as here, the group in question is in another country (on the other side of the world, no less), realistically, from a legal and financial standpoint, a fraternity's options to investigate and take legal action are going to be very limited.

Fraternally,

And trying to get that legal action enforced in the Philippines, especially if the group isn't a business registered with the Philippine SEC gets somewhat difficult.

There have been many different reactions from USA Greek Letter Organizations to groups with the same name in the Philippines. On the one hand, you have Alpha Sigma Phi, where eventually they accepted the group in the Philippines as a separate national organization as a separate International Umbrella, on the other hand you have Phi Beta Kappa where the USA organizations is going through the effort to sue in the Philippines. (I think Phi Beta Kappa is into the second year of the effort).

There are several groups in the middle including Delta Upsilon(Phil), Alpha Tau Omega(Phil) and Sigma Alpha Epsilon(Phil). Delta Upsilon(Phil) is attempting to affiliate. Alpha Tau Omega(Phil) and Sigma Alpha Epsilon(Phil) seem to be using symbols that are derived from those of the US groups. Whether the Philippine National approves of that, I don't know. Not sure what the situation is with Sigma Nu...

For Alpha Phi Omega, the effort in the Philippines has been approved by the US group since the year it started.

Randy

[rslpac1]

Thanks for the information!

The only thing that I believe is the major sticking point, and one that sort of confuses me, is the fact that DU in the Phillippines did not optain approval from the International Fraternity, nor go through a colony process. The chartering of a chapter, much less initiating members, without the approval of that fraternity's national hq is grounds for expulsion in most if not all fraternities. Its illegal use of all the fraternities symbols, rituals, materials, etc...

Bear in mind I only speak from my experience in Sinfonia and what I know of the U.S. greek system. Any interest group, regardless of location or geography or country, IMHO must follow the rules of that organization in order to be a legal entity and arm of that group. Doesn't matter if its the U.S., Canada, Japan, Phillippines, etc... you must follow the proper procedures to be first a colony and then a chapter.

My 2 cents.
Rich

[rufio]

Originally Posted by rslpac1

Thanks for the information!

The only thing that I believe is the major sticking point, and one that sort of confuses me, is the fact that DU in the Phillippines did not optain approval from the International Fraternity, nor go through a colony process. The chartering of a chapter, much less initiating members, without the approval of that fraternity's national hq is grounds for expulsion in most if not all fraternities. Its illegal use of all the fraternities symbols, rituals, materials, etc...

which is why they're appealing for affiliation. they recognize they are acting independently. they just went about becoming DU's the wrong way and are trying to find a way to rectify it.

[naraht]

Delta Upsilon of the Philippines is a relatively young group as well (founded June 22, 2004).

If Delta Upsilon of North America were to require as part of legal affiliation (either as a separate "National" or as part of them) that all members in the Philippines by someone already in Delta Upsilon and was willing to help make that happen, I think it could be made to work. This could be done by either initiating some of the DU-Phil alumni in North America or by having a group from the DU North America National Board/National go over to the Philippines.

From a quick scan of the ritual, it appears that it could be done with only 3 members of DU-Phil being properly initiated, but that's just reading it. (And I'm sure it would be better if done by more)

Also, I notice that the ritual mentions the United States and Canada specifically, DU may actually have to change their ritual to properly sew up all of the loose ends...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by rslpac1

The only thing that I believe is the major sticking point, and one that sort of confuses me, is the fact that DU in the Phillippines did not optain approval from the International Fraternity, nor go through a colony process. The chartering of a chapter, much less initiating members, without the approval of that fraternity's national hq is grounds for expulsion in most if not all fraternities. Its illegal use of all the fraternities symbols, rituals, materials, etc...

I think the legality can get a little sticky. Yes, names, coats-of-arms and the like are registered trademarks, and fraternities have the ability to take action for the unauthorized use of them. That gets much more complicated, and in some cases near impossible, though, when the unauthorized use is not in the United States.

Generic symbols typically are not protected. We, for example, could not trademark a simple lyre or triangle, although a specific design of such a symbol (such as the lyre in our visual identity) can be trademarked.

As for rituals, an interesting question is raised. Will the typical fraternity try to take any kind of legal action, since doing so would require the fraternity to go into court and prove the unauthorized use of the ritual? Doing so would almost certainly require the complaining fraternity to introduce its ritual into evidence.

Which reiterates what I think may be an important factor here -- DU is not a typical fraternity where ritual is concerned. Its ritual has always been open; non-secrecy was one of the founding principles of DU. The DU can be found on their national website. I wonder if that made it an easier target for the group in the Phillipines.

I'll admit that as I've read about these orgs in the Phillipines, I've wondered, "How would we do if it were us?" Unfortunately, I think that an equally important question is "What could we do?"

[naraht]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I think the legality can get a little sticky. Yes, names, coats-of-arms and the like are registered trademarks, and fraternities have the ability to take action for the unauthorized use of them. That gets much more complicated, and in some cases near impossible, though, when the unauthorized use is not in the United States.

Generic symbols typically are not protected. We, for example, could not trademark a simple lyre or triangle, although a specific design of such a symbol (such as the lyre in our visual identity) can be trademarked.

As for rituals, an interesting question is raised. Will the typical fraternity try to take any kind of legal action, since doing so would require the fraternity to go into court and prove the unauthorized use of the ritual? Doing so would almost certainly require the complaining fraternity to introduce its ritual into evidence.

Which reiterates what I think may be an important factor here -- DU is not a typical fraternity where ritual is concerned. Its ritual has always been open; non-secrecy was one of the founding principles of DU. The DU can be found on their national website. I wonder if that made it an easier target for the group in the Phillipines.

I'll admit that as I've read about these orgs in the Phillipines, I've wondered, "How would we do if it were us?" Unfortunately, I think that an equally important question is "What could we do?"

I think Phi Beta Kappa may have it easier then in the law suit. If I remember my Fraternity history correctly, the Phi Beta Kappa ritual was revealed sometime before 1820 and as such is at about the same level of privacy as Delta Upsilon.

Symbols get tricky, what do you do if the National Organization in the Philippines doesn't officially use it, but all kinds of youtube videos and Friends pages of the Philippines group do use it (or something similar), which I *think* is the situation for SAE.

I would tend to think that lawsuits would go after the public parts of the Fraternity in the Philippines, use of symbols, claims that they are part of the USA group etc.

To me there are three questions that need to be answered about a Group in the Philippines with the same name as that of one in the United States before deciding what action to take.

1) Are members of this Group claiming to actually be members of the Fraternity in the United States?

2) If no, Are the members of this Group using symbols, songs and other related indicators of the North American Group as part of their activities

3) If the first two are no, Are the groups of the same or similar "types" in terms of limitations on their membership for example (only engineers for example).

If a group started in the Philippines called Phi Mu Alpha that was limited to only male Medical Students at the University of the Philippines College of Medicine (say as a competitor to Phi Kappa Mu (http://www.phikappamu.com/)) and had Blue and White as their colonrs, I seriously doubt that Phi Mu Alpha -Sinfonia would sue them.

OTOH, if it this group were Phi Mu Alpha (or Sinfonia) at the University of Philippines Music and Performing Arts College limited to Music Students and had a crest with a triangle on top of a red diagonal cross on a pentagonal shield and claimed that they were part of your organization. I think Phi Mu Alpha would be *far* more concerned and might actually talk to Phi Beta Kappa to get suggestions.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by naraht

If a group started in the Philippines called Phi Mu Alpha that was limited to only male Medical Students at the University of the Philippines College of Medicine (say as a competitor to Phi Kappa Mu (http://www.phikappamu.com/)) and had Blue and White as their colonrs, I seriously doubt that Phi Mu Alpha -Sinfonia would sue them.

OTOH, if it this group were Phi Mu Alpha (or Sinfonia) at the University of Philippines Music and Performing Arts College limited to Music Students and had a crest with a triangle on top of a red diagonal cross on a pentagonal shield and claimed that they were part of your organization. I think Phi Mu Alpha would be *far* more concerned and might actually talk to Phi Beta Kappa to get suggestions.

Agreed. I just wonder how much could feasibly be done. Maybe we'll all learn soon enough.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Agreed. I just wonder how much could feasibly be done. Maybe we'll all learn soon enough.

Maybe. I wish Phi Beta Kappa luck. See www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATGzKOmopHw as an example of what Phi Beta Kappa is suing about. and if you want to see what Sigma Alpha Epsilon is dealing with, see http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/announcement.php?f=90

Unable to find a good source for Alpha Tau Omega, but they do use a symbol that looks similar to the maltese cross for ATO North America...

Randy

[preciousjeni]

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[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

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