balanced man vs traditional

[traditional1]

Originally Posted by Scones

Yet, you can't compare apples to oranges. But they're both still some goddamn fruit.

Sure I can. And I will. If some BM from University of Well Balanced Men tells me he's a BM. That means he learned the grip in his first few weeks of school. That means he knew the ritual at EDGE while I was still a pledge. That means he didn't earn our secrets at all.

I can compare the BMP chapters at EDGE to my pledge class. My pledge class stuck together when they tried to split us up into groups. We left for lunch together when they had split up groups with other chapters for lunch. I remember that as the first time I knew the difference between Traditional Pledgeship and the ridiculous BMP.

Both might be some goddamn fruit, but I don't trust BM. Congrats on your community service, your GPA, your finally becoming an Epsilon and learning more of my grandfather's rituals. I wouldn't respond to a BM "SigEp fight" call, because the BMP doesn't allow people to bond, there is no trust before knowledge. If it was really WWII that started the current pledge system, then I'm almost thankful the Japanese bombed pearl harbor.

Originally Posted by Scones

SigEp took the less dangerous road and listened to the growing concerns of today's anti-greek society... If you want to fix BMP, fix our messed up America first.

Umm, I have no intention of fixing BMP. BMP is clearly a reaction to Traditional Fraternity practices. The feminism of this country that is growing, making it's way into this brotherhood is appaling. I'm willing to consider changing some traditions, but the BMP kills the heart of this fraternity. At the very least if anyone tells me my chapter will become a BMP, I will take my letters with me and leave. I will go to my grandfather's grave, put my letters next to it, and share a moment of deep pain from the BMP and, I guess, society. Fixing America is another thread all together.

Originally Posted by Scones

But take my words to heart, BROTHERHOOD is not dead at my BMP. It may have a few weak links, it may have men who don't deserve. But I'll be goddamned if I tell you they know what it means to truly be a SigEp.

My BMP brothers earn their understanding, and what they reap they shall sow. That is BMP.

Originally Posted by Scones

I still don't get the BMP. And I've yet to meet a BMP who knows what SigEp is. But:

I believe they might have some brotherhood at a BMP, but brotherhood is at least dying at BM chapters. I met pledges from BM's at EDGE (which, by the way, was idiotic itself), I meet BM's when I travel to other schools for football/basketball games. They all have one thing in common, their bond of brotherhood is about as strong as a newborns skull. They inherently have to care more about grades than men, they have to care more about community service than Brotherly Love, and they don't realize that Virtue and Dilligence to a Traditional SigEp Brother means Honor and Pride, not just community service and GPA. What does a "Brother" In Need night teach you other than how many push ups you can do before you get tired? Pledging teaches you how many push ups you can do before you get tired, how much longer you can go after you get tired. Pledging has requirements and cardinal principles taught in unforgettable lessons, BMP has quests(?) with guide books(?) and community service(?). This isn't the f$%^ing Boy Scouts... I finished the Boy Scouts years ago.

Real fraternities might seem like hoodlums to society and BM pledges, but at least I know my father and his father learned how to be a SigEp the same way I did. And honestly, that is all I care about, that is goddamn tradition. That is just the tip of the iceberg as far as what it means to be a SigEp. It would take 3 or 4 BD's including 1 PM about 9 or 10 weeks to teach you what it really means to be a SigEp. I don't pretend to be an expert Balanced Men, but I'll bet I can stand on one foot longer than they can. BM's don't know what this means, but I'd love to have them wake me up with the knock of Motivated Motivated Motivated, Sir. It could be a knock dying out, but my father knows it, and I learned it. We were in two different traditional chapters, separated by 30 years, with the same traditions. If anything the BMP kills my own family's tradition.

I must stop ranting as most of the people reading this are BM and wouldn't know what I'm talking about from this point on. Traditional SigEps are a dying breed and that's a sad thing because we don't need to be. Our national staff is clearly trying to force BMP, which as a brotherhood it is completely irresponsible to accept. If my grandfather saw what has happened to this fraternity he might've not requested to be buried with a president's pin.

[Benson7824]

Trad1,

Just reading your first paragraph tells me you have no idea what the BMP entails. As an FYI, the BMP takes LONGER to learn the secrets of the fraternity than traditional pledging.

As for the brotherhood statements, I'll just say that, as a BMP chapter founder, I know what brotherhood is and learned this through toils and stress that makes doing pushups look like a cakewalk. And I guarentee you are not any closer to your pledge brothers than I am to my brothers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again...SigEp chapters differ on each campus - always have and always will. I've seen and heard about very strong and very weak chapters all over the country, and the reality is that whether they are Trad or BMP doesn't make a bit of difference...it's all about the men in the chapter and the alums that stick around to support it.

Benson

[traditional1]

Longer? Really? When do BMPledges learn the token and sign? I was told it was during the first few weeks after a bid... I have no idea if that is true, but if it is, it's completely irresponsible.

I congratulate you on founding a new chapter of this fraternity. If I thought you wanted it, I would give you any help I could. I honestly hope you do make pushups look like a cakewalk for each of and every one of your pledges. Pushups were really just a mataphor. I hope you ding your pledges, I hope you are careful in who you do and do not let into your brotherhood. I hope you offer the hardest physical and mental challenge to your pledges they ever will know, unless, perhaps they happen to enter the military.

The entire point of this thread is that Traditional chapter alums completely disagree with what you say about "Trad or BMP doesn't make a bit a difference". But otherwise what you say is entirely true. I am an alum who sticks around to make sure the traditions of my fraternity (at least at my chapter) never change.

[hoyasigep]

Traditional1,

First, the same ceremony takes place when you become a Sigma or a Pledge. In our chapter, the Sigma Challenge lasts 12 weeks, involves study and gym hours, learning the LROB, the songs etc. It usually ends with a major event the night before the Sigmas go through the Phi rite of passage.

The Phi Rite of Passage is the same ritual as the Initiation in traditional chapters, but cut off at a certain point. Check your ritual books to see where this is. In our chapter, another semester and a half passes before the Phi's can progress through the Epsilon Rite of Passage. This is the same, full ritual as you experienced.

There is strong sigma class unity in our chapter, but there is a greater bond between all brothers. The biggest difference I see is that sigmas are considered brothers, while pledges are not. I agree with you that this can cause problems; however, it also solves many problems such as hazing etc. One brother currently in our chapter is a transfer from a traditional chapter. At first he had great hesitations about the BMP, but after actually seeing it implemented in a way that appreciates the benefits of a traditional chapter, its obvious that it can work well.

By the way, I also agree with the issues of nationals pushing numbers and turning this into a business. I love SigEp, appreciate good traditional and BMP chapters, but have no tolerance for Tragos Phi Epsilon. Oh and EDGE sucks.

[SigEpBrother2K8]

I joined SPE just this last semester for three reasons:
1) The guys
2) The brotherhood and networking
and 3) Sigma Phi Epsilon is blazing new trails and changing how Greek life is conducted and looked at from the community.

The BMP is one of the largest ways we have shown our innovation and now I am hearing of other Greek nationals talking about following in our footsteps. I respect traditional chapters (as long as the hazing is kept to an absolute minimum); how could I not, they founded the fraternity. However, I think the BMP is one of the best things that has happened to this fraternity and the Greek community as a whole.

[SigEpBrother2K8]

Originally Posted by traditional1

Longer? Really? When do BMPledges learn the token and sign? I was told it was during the first few weeks after a bid... I have no idea if that is true, but if it is, it's completely irresponsible.

I congratulate you on founding a new chapter of this fraternity. If I thought you wanted it, I would give you any help I could. I honestly hope you do make pushups look like a cakewalk for each of and every one of your pledges. Pushups were really just a mataphor. I hope you ding your pledges, I hope you are careful in who you do and do not let into your brotherhood. I hope you offer the hardest physical and mental challenge to your pledges they ever will know, unless, perhaps they happen to enter the military.

The entire point of this thread is that Traditional chapter alums completely disagree with what you say about "Trad or BMP doesn't make a bit a difference". But otherwise what you say is entirely true. I am an alum who sticks around to make sure the traditions of my fraternity (at least at my chapter) never change.

It takes a lot longer to learn the secrets. I have been through the Phi Rite of Passage and I do not know the token and sign, nor a few other secrets. I am learning slowly, which allows me and my class to concentrate harder on each secret, what it means, and learn how to apply it to my own life and live it. I joined Fall of '07. I agree tradition should never change, but sometimes it must evolve.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by SigEpBrother2K8

I respect traditional chapters (as long as the hazing is kept to an absolute minimum)

Just because a chapter isn't using the BMP, doesn't mean they are hazing in any way. We all know what happens when we assume.

[SigEpBrother2K8]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Just because a chapter isn't using the BMP, doesn't mean they are hazing in any way. We all know what happens when we assume.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

[TraditionOrBust]

When every guy from their respective balanced man chapters goes through train every week with their pledge brothers, ill start referring to them as my fraternity brothers.

[bowsandtoes]

My problem wouldn't be so much with the 'pledge' process at BMP chapters as it is with the Rush one. Quite honestly, from the BMP chapters I've seen they don't get quality guys. And then when I go home I have to listen to friends from other colleges bash the Sig Ep chapters there, and I know at heart that they're right. There's a reason they calls those chapters "Sigma Phi Everyone".

And to reiterate a point made earlier, I already finished Boy Scouts. All that personal growth stuff was great back in high school. I joined Sig Ep for the brotherhood and camaraderie.

[SigEpTnEta]

Ok, for everyone addressing RLC and freaking out about it, RLC is not a new name for fraternity houses. A Residential Learning Community is a program that chapters are encouraged to include in their house. We're currently working on implementing one, but it's a lot of hard work and red tape. Quite a few chapters I've met even have RLC's located somewhere other than their house. Basically you guys assuming it's just some new name for fraternity houses reflects your knowledge about new policy.

Secondly, I am a member of a BMP chapter in the South, and we do nothing but mesh well with any traditional chapters we meet. I just rushed last fall, and I will be hopefully going through Epsilon soon. I can fairly say that I am ignorant about what our ritual is really about right now, and I'm glad for this. I want to be able to go through Epsilon and know it was all worth it. WAITING 7 MONTHS, NOT JUST 1 SEMESTER IS WORTH IT. They aren't just giving me my letters. We have many requirements, many hours of library, gym, and community service hours to complete, we interview all of our brothers and learn unique things about each one. As a rush class, we are encouraged to implement weekly brotherhood events like football, soccer, or even just going out to eat. We've done nothing but forge bonds the past 7 months we've been in. For any traditional chapter to tell me that I'm not a real brother, they are full of shit.

Also, as a fraternity, the SigEp chapter at my school is on top of everything. We have the highest grades, win the intramurals, run SGA (3 of 4 officers are SigEp, the last is former SigEp). We have the kind of parties that everyone comes to (even the other fraternities), and we have the kind of house that girls are never worried about coming to.

I have been to Carlson, and I am a frequent traveler, so I've met many guys from both walks of the SigEp life, and while I have met some really....really weird BMP guys, I've also met just about as many Traditional guys that are complete fucking douchebags (1 chapter actually assigned one of my rush brothers a pledge before my brother was even all the way through). For us, we follow BMP principles, but as a fraternity, we certainly don't just make it a cake walk. We make sure each guy we choose not only has a stable (not genius, not fucking retarded) GPA, will be respectable around campus, and will be a strong asset during intramurals.

I've finished my rant now. Hopefully anyone that replies to this will have read the whole thing.

[bowsandtoes]

Every balanced man keeps pointing to the same reasons why they're a good chapter. Last time I checked GPA wasn't a measure of brotherhood. Neither were intramural standings.

[SigEpTnEta]

I'm sure you skimmed through the post like I figured many would. I was trying to reply to many arguments proposed (I read this entire thread tonight). Earlier, one person asked if BMP chapters were the guys who had the awesome parties and got the girls, or if they were just nerds. Our chapter takes the Balanced Man ideal to heart. We run the campus, we run the fields, we run the night life. One problem we do have that I will admit to is, however, cockiness. I'm working on that one, though. This one's a bit shorter...hopefully you'll read the whole thing this time.

[bowsandtoes]

I did in fact read the whole post, however I saw the same points being made as every balanced man makes in defense of their chapters.

According to national's website you guys nurse a nice 3.0 gpa and chapter size is under 35. Maybe it has to do with the quality of the greek system there but those numbers aren't much to brag about.

[SigEpTnEta]

We actually have 46 guys, with a 47th on the way. Last semester was a make or break semester for us, we were 16,000 dollars in debt and had less than 20 guys, in one semester we turned it all around. We more than doubled our numbers and we got out of debt. Just got an Excelsior Cup for finance. We were 39 man last fall, but 3 dropped. We then got 10 new guys this spring. You could have just asked me about or chapter rather than checking out nationals. Anyways, having even just 30 guys is impressive for a school our size.