Mergers...is is still possible?

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Erik's just a classic GLO elitist. Should Greek Life only be available to individuals in Ivy League, Big 12, Big 10, SEC, PAC-10 and Big East schools? I'm thinking no.

I'm thinking yes. I know that will get people's panties in a bunch. Pledging at Harvard is different from pledging from Chico State. The newspapers seem to think so anyway.

The cutoff I suppose is arbitrary. There are diamonds in the rough everywhere. But I doubt many fraternities go looking for these diamonds when they set up in the lower tiered schools. "Good numbers? Not in the newspaper for breaking the law every day? Good for us!"

If 33girl is the only one with the balls to even hint at it, I'll say it straight up for Erik. Erik, why has TKE expanded into some of the least demanding/desireable schools? I of course have this gentleman on ignore but his answer may be of interest to others.

-Rudey

[Kevin]

Rudey:

I went to a 'less than desirable' school (D-2). I ended up helping found my chapter there. It was a hell of an experience for me. I just can't conceive as to why so long as a chapter produces good donor (and several of us are well on our way) material that a national organization needs to construct flag pavilions, pay insurance, etc. why the hell not?

I won't try and pretend that we had the same experience as the guys at say Oklahoma or Oklahoma State, but was my experience good? Were there great parties? Hell yes. Were there beautiful women around all the time? Check. Do I have a lifelong membership to a brotherhood on which I have depended on and will continue to do so? Also check.

What is the utility in limiting where chapters expand so long as risk management principles are applied uniformly and effectively?

[g41965]

I do not like the dilution of strong nationals and yes some fraternal organizations have been more selective or better at maintaining chapters. Just so I don't hurt anyone ones feelings I'll pick on DU my fraternity of which I am very proud.
Before WWII and to a lesser extent before the middle 1960's DU was very picky about colonizing. DU's list of chapters opened from 1850-1965 is awe inspiring. Since 1965 not as strong.
In 1971 DU went to a Jr. College, this chapter died a painful death in fact a lot of the less residential/more commuter oriented schools DU went to in the 1970's died quickly.
COMPARING ERAS:
LIST OF CHAPTERS INSTALLED BY DU 1919-1935
WESLEYAN 1919 revived chapter
KANSAS 1920
OREGON ST. 1922
VIRGINIA 1922
MISSOURI 1924
IOWA 1925
DARTMOUTH 1926
OKLAHOMA 1927
JOHNS HOPKINS 1928
UCLA 1929
MANITOBA 1929
WASH. AND LEE 1930
WESTERN ONTARIO 1931
WASH. ST.1933
OREGON 1934
ALBERTA 1935
BRTISH COLUMBIA 1935

DU 1971-1985

COLORADO ST 1971
DAYTON 1971
SOUTH DAKOTA 1971
SOUTHERN ILLINOIS 1971
TYLER JR. COLLEGE 1971
MARYLAND 1972
SW TEXAS 1972
HOUSTON 1973
UNC WILMINGTON 1974
W ILLINOIS 1974
ARKANSAS1975
SYRACUSE 1976- revived chapter
NC STATE 1977
BAYLOR 1978
MICH STATE 1979
LSU 1979
MASSACHUSETTS 1980
PENN 1980 -Revived chapter
SW MISSOURI 1981
VIRGINIA TECH 1981
SOUTH CAROLINA 1983
SAN JOSE ST.- Revived chapter
MCGILL -Revived chapter

Lets face it DU was not as selective in the 1970 's and many of those chapter's have died.
In 1967 DU had 80 active and 12 dead chapters now DU has 80 active and 70 dead chapters is DU better than it was in 1966 probably not, are all national fraternities or sororities equal,no, are mergers possible yes, will they happen ,probably, in the 1970's Phi Mu Delta almost merged with Delta Phi , this merger probably would have helped form one small strong national, in the 1980's Phi Sigma Epsilon did merge with Phi Sigma Kappa. I can think of two or three small nationals that would fit in well with DU will it happen, I don't know, should we crucify someone for telling the truth nope, some orgs are stronger some weaker its just the facts.
I had to add another comment , Is it fair to overexpand? Many schools with weaker Greek systems have many dead chapters ,is it fair to alumni to see a chapter fail however hard the members try because the chapter never should formed to begin with? A lot of commuter schools have many inactive chapters.
Better to go to fewer schools and work harder to build up the chapters than to overexpand and cheapen your fraternity.
Two comments on Erik:

Sows leaving the hog house comment thats rude stop it.

Hen house comment not near as bad: at my church one group of women has a club called Rens Hens named after a women who has been in the church 50 + years.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Rudey:

I went to a 'less than desirable' school (D-2). I ended up helping found my chapter there. It was a hell of an experience for me. I just can't conceive as to why so long as a chapter produces good donor (and several of us are well on our way) material that a national organization needs to construct flag pavilions, pay insurance, etc. why the hell not?

I won't try and pretend that we had the same experience as the guys at say Oklahoma or Oklahoma State, but was my experience good? Were there great parties? Hell yes. Were there beautiful women around all the time? Check. Do I have a lifelong membership to a brotherhood on which I have depended on and will continue to do so? Also check.

What is the utility in limiting where chapters expand so long as risk management principles are applied uniformly and effectively?

I know where you went Kevin. That's why I put my disclaimers in. But I don't believe most fraternities that expand to lower tier schools do so to find good guys, the diamonds in the rough, and do not apply uniform risk management principles (almost like uniformly insuring against suicide bombs in Baghdad and Savanah).

Now I can't say I've got metrics to your specific org or chapter. I am just looking at a system on the whole.

-Rudey

[Erik P Conard]

bollicks.

[irishpipes]

Re: the DU expansion - doesn't it make sense that most GLOs are expanding to lesser known, or smaller schools in recent years? Many GLOs already have chapters at the big schools, and therefore must expand elsewhere, or choose not to expand. Also, GLOs can't just decide to go onto large campuses - there is a procedure that is mostly out of their control.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by irishpipes
Re: the DU expansion - doesn't it make sense that most GLOs are expanding to lesser known, or smaller schools in recent years? Many GLOs already have chapters at the big schools, and therefore must expand elsewhere, or choose not to expand. Also, GLOs can't just decide to go onto large campuses - there is a procedure that is mostly out of their control.

Yeah...forget the Ivies...colonize at Bob Jones State Polytechnic International University.

-Rudey

[OPhiARen3]

Originally posted by Rudey
Yeah...forget the Ivies...colonize at Bob Jones State Polytechnic International University.

-Rudey

For one thing, f*ck the Ivies - most of those schools aren't any harder (and often are easier - ever heard of grade inflation?) and don't provide any higher quality of education than lots of other schools in the country. They're just harder to get in to. Big deal.

For another thing, what is the purpose of GLOs, anyway? Anyone you ask will respond differently. But the fact is, they are not all academic honor societies. (BTW, if you are going to be an elitist about what schools are "good" in that respect, maybe you should check out what schools have Phi Beta Kappa chapters before making out your list.) A lot of people think that, while scholarship is important, things like sisterhood/brotherhood and serving the community are more so - and you can definitely be at any kind of school, or no school at all, and still have those things.

ETA: Here is the link to the PBK chapter directory, if anyone's interested - http://www.pbk.org/affiliate/chapterdir.htm

[Rudey]

1) There are very few schools without grade inflation, and those are never the lower tiered schools.

2) It's not about being an academic honor society. Academics are not the only thing that separate tier 1 schools from the rest. The list of schools PBK is irrelevant.

3) A fraternity/sorority is exclusive and elitist by its nature. I want the best people as my brothers. You can choose to have whomever you want I guess too.

-Rudey

Originally posted by OPhiARen3
For one thing, f*ck the Ivies - most of those schools aren't any harder (and often are easier - ever heard of grade inflation?) and don't provide any higher quality of education than lots of other schools in the country. They're just harder to get in to. Big deal.

For another thing, what is the purpose of GLOs, anyway? Anyone you ask will respond differently. But the fact is, they are not all academic honor societies. (BTW, if you are going to be an elitist about what schools are "good" in that respect, maybe you should check out what schools have Phi Beta Kappa chapters before making out your list.) A lot of people think that, while scholarship is important, things like sisterhood/brotherhood and serving the community are more so - and you can definitely be at any kind of school, or no school at all, and still have those things.

ETA: Here is the link to the PBK chapter directory, if anyone's interested - http://www.pbk.org/affiliate/chapterdir.htm

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally posted by OPhiARen3
For one thing, f*ck the Ivies - most of those schools aren't any harder (and often are easier - ever heard of grade inflation?) and don't provide any higher quality of education than lots of other schools in the country. They're just harder to get in to. Big deal.
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Yeah, okay. You're right. They're terrible. The media wing of the Democratic party just keeps them afloat.

[OPhiARen3]

Originally posted by Rudey
1) There are very few schools without grade inflation, and those are never the lower tiered schools.

2) It's not about being an academic honor society. Academics are not the only thing that separate tier 1 schools from the rest. The list of schools PBK is irrelevant.

3) A fraternity/sorority is exclusive and elitist by its nature. I want the best people as my brothers. You can choose to have whomever you want I guess too.

-Rudey

So what exactly is it about students at Tier I schools that makes them so superior for fraternities/sororities? What qualities do you perceive them as having that make them "the best people"?

From what I found on answers.com, this is how the tiers are determined:

* Peer assessment: a survey of the institution's reputation among presidents, provosts, and deans of admission of other institutions
* Retention: six-year graduation rate and first-year student retention rate
* Student selectivity: standardized test scores of admitted students, proportion of admitted students in upper percentiles of their high-school class, and proportion of applicants accepted
* Faculty resources: average class size, faculty salary, faculty degree level, student-faculty ratio, and proportion of full-time faculty
* Financial resources: per-student spending
* Graduation rate performance: difference between expected and actual graduation rate
* Alumni giving rate

So as far as I can tell, you are saying it should be based on academic selectivity, and looking at this, class as well (per-student spending, alumni giving rate)?

Examples of a few (randomly selected) schools from Tiers I, II, III, and IV from another website (http://www.go4ivy.com/rankings.asp):

Tier I: Cal Tech, Emory, Washington St Louis
Tier II: Bates, Georgetown, Notre Dame
Tier III: Case WR, Tulane, UVA
Tier IV: GWU, UNC Chapel Hill, West Point

In response to your number 3 - exactly. Different fraternities and sororities can choose whoever they want for their organizations, and still call themselves fraternities and sororities. This might shock and horrify you, but not all fraternities and sororities are "exclusive and elitist by nature," nor do they all want to be.

Maybe myself and some of my OPhiA sisters wouldn't be people you would like to have in your ideal GLO world, but I assure you that we have all learned a lot from our sisterhood together.

[madmax]

Originally posted by OPhiARen3
So what exactly is it about students at Tier I schools that makes them so superior for fraternities/sororities? What qualities do you perceive them as having that make them "the best people"?

$$$$

[Rudey]

You don't get it and I doubt I could explain it much more to you. I don't know how to phrase this well but a while ago there was a gentleman on here from England who wanted to start a Law Fraternity; you remind me of him.

I am sure neither of us will ever understand each other.

-Rudey

Originally posted by OPhiARen3
So what exactly is it about students at Tier I schools that makes them so superior for fraternities/sororities? What qualities do you perceive them as having that make them "the best people"?

From what I found on answers.com, this is how the tiers are determined:

* Peer assessment: a survey of the institution's reputation among presidents, provosts, and deans of admission of other institutions
* Retention: six-year graduation rate and first-year student retention rate
* Student selectivity: standardized test scores of admitted students, proportion of admitted students in upper percentiles of their high-school class, and proportion of applicants accepted
* Faculty resources: average class size, faculty salary, faculty degree level, student-faculty ratio, and proportion of full-time faculty
* Financial resources: per-student spending
* Graduation rate performance: difference between expected and actual graduation rate
* Alumni giving rate

So as far as I can tell, you are saying it should be based on academic selectivity, and looking at this, class as well (per-student spending, alumni giving rate)?

Examples of a few (randomly selected) schools from Tiers I, II, III, and IV from another website (http://www.go4ivy.com/rankings.asp):

Tier I: Cal Tech, Emory, Washington St Louis
Tier II: Bates, Georgetown, Notre Dame
Tier III: Case WR, Tulane, UVA
Tier IV: GWU, UNC Chapel Hill, West Point

In response to your number 3 - exactly. Different fraternities and sororities can choose whoever they want for their organizations, and still call themselves fraternities and sororities. This might shock and horrify you, but not all fraternities and sororities are "exclusive and elitist by nature," nor do they all want to be.

Maybe myself and some of my OPhiA sisters wouldn't be people you would like to have in your ideal GLO world, but I assure you that we have all learned a lot from our sisterhood together.

[Rudey]

And again, to stop people from taking this down the wrong road:

I am not saying to stop chapter operations at all lower tier schools. I am saying that given that the higher tier schools have such outstanding students, it's a shame that fraternities and sororities have chosen to pass them over for the party schools.

-Rudey

[Kevin]

Often the challenges of entering top-tier schools -- especially private ones make such a move impossible. Some organizations like DKE seem to have done so, limiting themselves to mostly prestigious schools while other organizations like PKA or Kappa Sigma seem to be able to put quality chapters together on virtually any campus in fairly short order.

I guess it depends on your organization's goal -- does it want to be small and elitist, or does it want to have a large and diverse brotherhood spread all over the country? Of course some organizations also try to be both.

I didn't go to a top tier school, most of us didn't. I think the greek system in general is better with us than without us, but feel free to disagree.