Paper Members

[ManndingoNUPE]

Doggystyle82,

I totally agree with you on the Pan Hellenic thing. MIP is a travesty, and there have been more instances of underground pledging since it's inception. I wasn't in the Bond at the time, but from what I understand, it was sorta rammed down the throat of not just Undergrads, but grads as well. I would have to disagree though with the whole "paper vs. pledge" thing coming about because of MIP. This has been around for a long time. I know brothers who pledged back in the 70's who tell me that this is an issue that is not new, and didn't come about because of MIP. Granted it has made it worse. But everyone thinks that they pledged harder than everyone else. You "Sons of Blood and Thunder", say that you pledge the hardest, the Spinxmen think that they pledge the hardest, and the Sigmas think the same. My thing is, we get bogged down in this "who pledged harder", My bloody xyz chapter pledged the hardest, we was on line for 12 weeks, and you were on for 6 so I pledged harder than you, that's silly to me. I would like to create subject where everyone can tell what they have done to change the current MIP process. Who have you contacted at Nationals, what petition has your name and membership number on it. What proposal have you written up. That's my thing. We all agree that MIP is not working. I just get tired of us complaining about it, and not doing anything to change it.

To my Ice Cold brother,

There are some things that we agree on such as that MIP is wrong. I appreciate you carnifying your words on pledging/the civil rights struggle. And to answer your question, no I don't grip up just anyone. I don't grip anyone whom I don't know. To me my grip is very special, and I reserve it for those brothers whom I know and love.

I don't think that you can tell me what my founders wanted and what they didn't any more than I can. Although I am in possession of papers dating back the early 20's and 30's in which founders and members of my great Klan speak about paddling, and other various activities associated with pledging.

Let's just say, that I also believe that they wouldn't be too happy with this MIP thing either. But I also think that they would be appalled at some of the practices that were done in the name of Kappa.

As far as Kappa not being open to everyone, that is true. Just because you have the money, doesn't mean that you should gain entrance. This is precisely why I am very vocal about intake and whom we bring into our beloved Bond. If I don't think that you will be an asset to my frat, or my chapter, you don't get my vote (period). Being a member of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc. is a privilege and a honor, not an entitlement.

MN


"Many are called, but few are chosen."

[Moni93]

Respect a person for what they do for your organization, and what they bring too it. This subject sort of makes me angry, becuase we make or bring in thousands of young men every year, yet only a small portion stay active. I won't spout the numbers, but only a minute number of men are financial out of over a 100,000. Many of those 100,000 took that LONG journey to Kappa Land. But upon arrival, did nothing but sit on the very a$$ that just got beat for that journey.
[/B]

Preach brother preach, that is funny because a couple of my linesisters and I were talking about that same issue after we went to our national convention and heard the national demographics.

It is one thing to get into a BGLO, but what happens after??? When I went over in undergrad, and progressed on to an alumnae chapter and happened to meet other sorors in my age and over, after the hug I would ask what chapter they are affiliated with? Some gave me chapter names, others related reasons why they have not joined an alumnae chapter, so I then extended an invitation to visit our chapter. It saddens me to think that you would bend over sideways, backwards, and financially to be a part of the process to discard it. Help comes through all shapes and forms either through helping with community service activities or becoming a financial member.

[DoggyStyle82]

MandingoNupe (isn't that name an oxymoron?, just joking): Before MIP, everyone knew that Omegas pledged the hardest (but it is relative for each org). But that is immaterial. It was never at the level of paper vs real like now. BTW, I have been active in trying to reform our intake process and thankfully, as a result of our last Conclave, a change is a coming. Hallelujah!!!

MONI 93: this may come as a shock to you, but alot of people who pledge undergrad do not pledge to be active in an alumni chapter. Some people like their undergrad chapter, some people like the undergrad lifestyle, some people like the bonding, some people do their community service elsewhere, some still affiliate with their org outside of chapter meetings, some do not like the politics of the alumni chapter, some do not like the lack of fraternal spirit on the grad level (strictly business). Some don't like having to work or abide paper members. Most importantly, others have lifestyle, family, or financial coommittments that preclude them from being as active as they would like. Whatever the reason for inactivity, one should ALWAYS remain FINANCIAL, represent their org well, and maintain their love and respect for the precepts of their letters.

[This message has been edited by DoggyStyle82 (edited September 05, 2000).]

[ManndingoNUPE]

I will show deference to my Omega brother becuase he is old, uh, I mean becuase he is older and wiser than me. (Just jokes man). But on the real, you touch upon a point. If the only reason that a person joins is for the bonding and the spirit that is felt on Undergrad level, then what is the purpose? Hell I got that on the grad level. If we look at it from that standpoint, then why not just abolish the grad chapter, and let it only be an undergrad thing.

So I am a Kappa, Omega, Sigma, Alpha, Iota in udergrad, but when I graduate, I am just another brother. I really can't get with that. I will agree with you though on the politics of the grad chapter. Yeah, in many respects it is like a buisness. I trully hate this aspect of it, and I actually hold office in my chapter. While I hate the politics, I know that we all should have a larger purpose in mind, and that is the well being of our frat first, and then that of our chapter. While I got mad luv for my chapter, and will throw blows in the name of my chapter, I know that first and foremost, I joined Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc.

I don't knock a brother who is not in a chapter if he is doing something positive to uphold the principles of our frat, but one thing that I do hate is when someone uses the excuse of politics, or I don't like them brothers, or I ain't got time. Excuses are tools of incompetence, blah, blah, blah, you know the rest.
Now right after college, allot of brothers are trying to get themselves together, and do their thing, kool, but after a certain period, you really need to be active in some fashion. Some of the best brothers I know, aren't active in a chapter, but are still working in the kommunity, and I gotta respect that.

Now my frat, as I believe all the others could not exist without the grad chapters, becuase that is where the leadership is drawn from, and that is where most of the financial backbone comes from. We also couldn't exist without the undergrad, becuase most of our members come in through the undergrad. So witout each of the two working together, all frats would perish. If we could get half of the membership to be active and financial, my god, imagine what a force all of our organizations could weild.

I want all frats and sorror. to be up and running when my kids (when I find an SGRho to marry me, I will have some), get to college and they have the opportunity to join. Of course if my son goes anything but KAPsi, I will dissown him, beat him, and feed him to the dogs, but you get the picture.

Fratenally Yours

MN

P.S. Leave my name alone, I have worked long and hard to get this name.

[DoggyStyle82]

See Nupe, its all Greek luv. But I was not excusing inactive members from their sworn obligations. Its just that I don't like to beat on them because life/maturity or immaturity impeded them. Most people fall away those first few years after undergrad when they are getting themselves involved in their professions, grad school, getting married, or roadtripping endlessly. Grad chapter business doesn't really interest them at the moment. The key is to keep them involved before they go adrift.

[ManndingoNUPE]

I totally agree bra.

[mgdzkm433]

I really don't see what the big deal is over 'paper' members. So they got in a different way than you, get over it. I've been out of school for 3 years now so I guess I might have a different prospective, but really people, there are much more important things to worry about. As long as the ideals and goals of your organization are being upheld, isn't that what matters? The big deal should be over why people want to join the organization. If they want to join the organization because they want to be a part of a group that holds ideals and goals that they respect, then there shouldn't be a problem, if they want to join just to wear the letters and strut around or have something on their resume, then there is a problem (but the latter can be said for people who go through a 'process' too. ALL of our founders had a goal, but brotherhood/sisterhood wasn't the only part, or even the most important part. Most organizations were formed by a group of people who had similar goals and ideas--that is what created the sisterhood/brotherhood, the fact that they shared a common goal and the stuggle to reach it. We shouldn't be looking at the 'intake process,' we should be looking at the person and deciding if they would be an asset to the goals and ideal of our organizations. How they are initiated shouldn't be an issue. I believe in upholding tradition just as much as the next person, but hating someone just because they got in a different way than you is probably what our founders 'least' had in mind.

[mccoyred]

Peace to all my frats/sorors in Greekdom but especially to my sorors, the Divas of DST.

I finally sat down and read this entire discussion and just had to respond.

I understand the rationale behind implementing MIP but there is a big difference between pledging and hazing. I pledged back in 1986 but was NOT hazed (hit, beat, humiliated, stranded, etc.)

Correct me if I am wrong but hazing is a CRIME in most states. Follow me here: If all "pledge" activities are hazing then pledging must be criminal because hazing is criminal. For example: if walking in line is pledging and all pledging is hazing and hazing is criminal does this mean that walking in line is criminal? COME ON!! Are they trying to tell me that I can be thrown in JAIL for making someone walk in a line across campus!?! This is just an example. What about greetings, dressing alike, line names, social probation, etc.?

I really feel that this is the basis of the entire debate of "real vs paper". Many bonding traditions were lost in this watered down version of the intake process.

Unfortunately, one cannot choose their process and should not be treated differently solely for that reason. Because we all know, THE REAL PLEDGING BEGINS AFTER YOU CROSS.

Peace

[Japera1920]

I have been reading into to this topic gr some time and it is time for me to speak. I am going to say this from the top, If I offend anyone I am sorry. These are my feeling and I am entitle to them.

Anyone after 1990 is a product of MIP. But we need to keep it real, people still and do pledge. But they is a diffenece in between pledging and hazing. A big difference.

I believe there should be a rite of passage. Belonging to such great organzations is a honor not a right. The Nifty Nine has come along way.

The real pledging is when you become a member and you are involved with community projects and trying to keep up with your dues.

When I first became a member of my organization, (where Finer Women are born)I would hear people stating I was the rock of my line, we pledge hard but when I would ask them if there are still active, crickets filled the air.

I do not have a problem if a person is "paper" why because we are all paper after 1990. Besides if the sister/brother knows the history and works hard with in the organization, I do not have a problem. The problems lays with me when a person comes down on another member because the way they were brought in. Is it the new member fault or the Intake coordinator fault. Who is to blame?

I rather take all the "paper" people that will work hard and know there stuff than some that pledge for 4 million years and do not do a damn thing. (sorry for the rough language :eek

Just remember after 1990 we are all paper according to the NPHC.

Japera (I guess you wonder what the name mean huh)

p.s. if there are any spelling mistakes I am sorry.

[Gina_lynn]

I tried my level best not to respond to this topic, but I just have to.

First, I am considered "paper". I was inititated in Nov. 1998. I have heard that term since I was offered membership, and I didn't understand it then, don't understand it now, and don't care! I am a Delta. Period. If I work, I'm a Delta who works. If I wear t-shirts, I'm a t-shirt-wearin'-Delta. That's all there is to it.

Secondly, there is something very sick and twisted about someone who says that "you have to undergo what I undergo to be worth my time." Can you image what our world would be like if our elders had felt the need for the next generations to go through what they went through? We would still be slaves! "Hell no, I plowed the field and picked cotton, so they'll have to plow the field and pick cotton". They wanted to make life better for generations that hadn't been born yet, and your telling me that someone on your campus or in your community, whom you know, can see, have a chance to affect in a drastic and perminant way, is not worthy of your time and respect unless they plowed the field and picked cotton. That's a special kind of self hatred.

Thirdly, That word "respect" gets slung around this debate quite a bit. I personally don't care what people think of me if I don't respect them, and how can I have respect for someone who signed their name to a pledge that they would not participate in nor facilitate hazing or anything outside of the membership intake process of the organization and then did it anyway? That makes you a liar plain and simple, and what do I care what a liar thinks of me? If you have such a problem with the MIP of your orgainzation, don't participate in any way. Make a stand at the rush/smoker and say "I believe that the MIP is a corrupt system, and I won't dignify it with my time or efforts". Otherwise, you have no integrity, and don't be surprised if I regaurd you as such.

Finally, how you came in has no bearing on what kind of brother/sister that person will be for you. It has to do with the kind of brother or sister you've been. Why would you expect a "paper" member to be there for you in the middle of the night if you've been treating him/her like less than a member of the family from the day they met you?

[Tinese]

Hi everyone! First I would like to say that I had to cross grad chapter of my organization (via so called paper) and it doesn't make me any less of a soror. I went through a lot of things for two years in order to get into my organization and I feel that no one can approach me concerning my process because of what I went through (and trust me I had gone through some stuff) and I have truly earned my letters. I said all of this to say that It doesn't really matter how you come into your organization its what you do after your in. Are you still financially active, do you participate in community service and so forth.

Tinese
SGRHO
saying it in 22 ways

I have to agree with Gina_lynn. I am a paper member of a BGLO. I was given the opportunity to be involved in the underground line.I have parents who are very active in their respective greek organizations, who know the bylaws and standards, and who were pledged/hazed and pleged/hazed others in the early '70s. My parents knew the signs of pledging and PROMISED me they would report any illegal activites to the appropriate officials if I did not remove myself from the situations . But I did go through a process with the other sorors who were not invited on line. A soror who had gone through 5 of 6 weeks of underground pledging and had to drop because her father threatend to report the activities to the school taught us everything she had learned in her 5 weeks online. Grant it, I wasn't out to 6am on a school night and I did not let somebody try to demean me, but I was processed in one way or another. Many sorors in my chapter are under the impression My line sisters and I know nothing about our organization and try to exclude us as much as possible even from official meetings, not just the social events. I know the poems, founders, chapter founders, dates, purpose, etc. And I love XYZ. (Because of my love for XYZ, I will not air her business by naming her). I refuse to let anyone make me feel like I am less of a member. I refuse to let anyone make me feel like I do not love XYZ, if i didnt love it I would have let my parents expose the illegal activities. I love the sorors in my chapter and all sorors nationally regardless of how they feel about me. I do not expect to be shown mad love, but respect me as a member.
I am sure this is getting lengthy, but let me get to my points. Do not assume that "paper" members know nothing about your respective organizations. Do not assume "paper" members are not quality, didn't you vote them in, so there must have been some attraction to these people. Think about the reasons why some are paper before you judge and decide not to show love.

And to other "paper" members. I know it is discouraging at times but don't let anyone steal your joy. Do your community service, participate in programs, make suggestions, and stay active. Remember there is another world after undergrad and this paper/real think won't even matter in a few years.

Originally posted by secret_crush:
I know the poems, founders, chapter founders, dates, purpose, etc. And I love XYZ.

SO DOES ANYONE WHO HAS DONE ENOUGH RESEARCH!
Lots of interests know this information and can recite it in their sleep. From incorporation dates to what a founder's favorite hobby is. From purposes and programs to naming the different regions. From why XYZ sorority uses this kinda animal as a symbol (cause one of the founders collected them) to what the different colors stand for. seriously the only thing they need now is to take a quiz, pay some money, sign a paper and their no different than those who went through m.i.p.! Pledging is what seperates the men from the boys and the girls from the women. and with that, I'm out!

[ahhkbah]

I got luv for all my bruhs, regardless of how they came in. I can only speak with certainty about my yard. One of my sorors told non-greeks that her process was only two weeks long and she was inactive for the remaider of her college career. Do I respect her no. But you cannot blame a person for their process because they could not control it. You can blame a person if they only want to step, party hop, call, wear letters, or get some. Do work people, that's all.

[Diva_56]

This is a subject thet will not die...


Believe me I have sen two sides of the spectrum, a chapter of XYZ fraternity pledge members one semester and the next semester did MIP. Believe me the 2 gentleman who went MIP go to all the chapter meetings and events, and are active in student government etc. while the pledged bros will be the first ones there at a party, AND NOTHING ELSE. I can't call someone who has to brutally beat me to be down with him brother/sister, however I will call them MENTALLY UNSTABLE!