School Vouchers

[KSig RC]

Originally posted by Munchkin03
I don't know about that one. In fact, I call complete and utter bullshit.

Where my parents live, everyone knows that the private schools (with the exception of the Catholic School) are all fly-by-night places that are the last resort for kids who get kicked out of our (generally excellent) public school system. None of them are nearly as rigorous as the public schools, so most of the "graduates" end up going to places like Liberty and Bob Jones. In the past four years, however, the public high schools have sent their graduates to all of the Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Northwestern, Chicago, and all of the great state schools.

This really has no bearing on Russ's point, but this sort of anecdotal evidence may not be the norm nationwide - I would assume that a higher percentage of bad schools are public, but I'm not sure if we can really ever discover this information for sure, due to difficulty in definition etc.

However, either way, calling bullshit with anecdotal evidence really doesn't help us get there.

[Rudey]

The free-market/increased competition proponents never realize that is based entirely on an efficient-market scenario.

-Rudey
--The world is neither efficient nor fair, and religious/criminal/racist/any "ist" people should have no further rights to exploit that.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by Rudey
The free-market/increased competition proponents never realize that is based entirely on an efficient-market scenario.

-Rudey
--The world is neither efficient nor fair, and religious/criminal/racist/any "ist" people should have no further rights to exploit that.

Hey, what if I'm a capitalist?

[amanda6035]

Did anybody watch the 20/20 Stupid In America Program tonight?

I thought it was pretty good. I think parents should have a choice to send a kid to whatever school they want. I read som earlier posts in this thread about the difference of the values in vouchers from county county or whatever....seems to me that a voucher idea would work if the STATE took the total cost of educating all schools and diving it equally, rather than by county. That way, it wouldnt matter which county you lived in and how much your voucher was worth - as long as you went to a school in the state you lived (which is common sense) then all students in that state would get couchers worth the same amount to go to any school.

I dunno. Sounds good to me. Oh yeah - and after watching that program - I totally think teachers unions suck. If a teacher can send a sex email to his 16 year old student and NOT get fired because of a union contract, theres a serious problem.

[DZTUBAGIRL]

I am so frustrated after watching 20/20 tonight. School vouchers are bull crap! The only lesson they are teaching is that crappy schools should just stay crappy. It makes me mad that private schools are getting my taxes but when I have a child they will not be able to go there. Meanwhile where my children might go, there are 40 kids in one classroom. It is things like this that make me not want to get into the teaching field. Sorry if anyone agrees with vouchers, whatever floats your boat, but I think they are crap!!

Ok now I need to calm down.

[KillarneyRose]

As far as school vouchers...just suppose I wish to send my children to private school (which I don't; this is hypothetical) because the local public school is "failing" academically and because it is being overrun by Li'l Future Criminals in Training.

Sure, the academic half of the problem could be solved by putting my children in a private school. But wouldn't the availability of vouchers make it possible for the L.F.C.T.'s to go to private school also, thereby just taking half of the problem and moving it to a new location? Protecting your children from trying to learn in an environment of disruption and violence by moving them to a "better" school and then allowing the L.F.C.T.'s doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't a large factor in the decision to send one's child to a private school be the desire to get them away from kids like that?

Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure how the voucher system should work so if I'm assuming something that isn't true, I'd really appreciate if someone who is familiar with the pro-anti voucher argument could comment on this. Thanks!

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Based on my experience, private schools have the option of kicking out students based on their conduct and their grades so that might resolve the problem you described, KR.

[AchtungBaby80]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
Sure, the academic half of the problem could be solved by putting my children in a private school. But wouldn't the availability of vouchers make it possible for the L.F.C.T.'s to go to private school also, thereby just taking half of the problem and moving it to a new location?

I'm wondering about that, too. I admit that I don't completely understand the whole voucher thing, despite having some education classes that touched on this issue. But...if we start letting everyone switch schools, including the problem students, wouldn't the "better" schools start going downhill? And then what? What would happen to the "bad" schools if all the students left to go to other schools? Would the other schools become overcrowded with all these new students? Is there a limit to the number of new students a "better" school has to take? I would love it if someone could explain this to me...it's sad that I'm going into education and I don't know.

[alum]

The problem with large public school systems is that "problem" students" and "teachers" can be moved from one school to another within the system similar to "problem priests" within a diocese.

At our local high school there are at least 10 kids from 2 high schools that share our boundaries that were expelled from their own high schools and put in ours. I'm sure that the reverse is true as well. I can think of at 2 boys that had concealed weapons charge (pocket knife) and vandalism that are in my daughter's grade.

One teacher at our local elementary school has no criminal record but he's just a BAD teacher. Principals are so happy to get him out of their schools so they don't give a heads up to the new school.

Mr. Alum and I don't support vouchers. We do believe in public schools and believe a child can get a great education from a public school. My kids each went to private for kindergarten because public only had 1/2 day nonsense but after that, public all the way.

[Tom Earp]

Sorry, but Vouchers to Private Schools are saying Our Public Schools are Lacking.

Of Course they are because of several things.

Financing and Not Allowing Teachers to control Their Class Rooms.

Parents are not allowed to check the Kids and Parents expect teachers to check the kids. That is not allowed either!

So, I guess, who does? The Courts? Oh, never mind, they have become a joke also!

[Rudey]

How about a program were problem children and criminals are sent to fight in wars?

Pros:
You enlarge the army
Those violent people can really do some damage and so does our army...good fit
It's much cheaper to give someone a gun (or have them bring their own) than it is to put them through a system of schools, suspensions, expulsions, transfers, juvie, jail, execution.

Cons:
The EU and Amnest International will complain.

-Rudey

[alum]

believe me, the military doesn't want them either!

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
As far as school vouchers...just suppose I wish to send my children to private school (which I don't; this is hypothetical) because the local public school is "failing" academically and because it is being overrun by Li'l Future Criminals in Training.

Sure, the academic half of the problem could be solved by putting my children in a private school. But wouldn't the availability of vouchers make it possible for the L.F.C.T.'s to go to private school also, thereby just taking half of the problem and moving it to a new location? Protecting your children from trying to learn in an environment of disruption and violence by moving them to a "better" school and then allowing the L.F.C.T.'s doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't a large factor in the decision to send one's child to a private school be the desire to get them away from kids like that?

Admittedly, I'm not 100% sure how the voucher system should work so if I'm assuming something that isn't true, I'd really appreciate if someone who is familiar with the pro-anti voucher argument could comment on this. Thanks!

I think there are some gross generalizations being made here... LFCT organization as you put it is mostly because of "failing families"--namely, neither parent is responsible to the child they produced because:

1) the parents are children themselves
2) hooked on drugs
3) just not around
4) all of the above

Which means that grandma is taking care of them... And grandma is old and doesn't know that one can steal an identity when you do not shread your pre-approved credit application after the letter is thrown in the trash can...

Moreover, we have the Baby Boomers becoming grandparents... So really, do you think the fabricators of the "sexual revolutions" had any idea what would happen to the concept of relationships outside of Oprah and Soap Operas to under-equipped, ill-educated children of child-bearing age? And it shocks you for what reason? Really? Just asking?

So pretty much, when we all know that over 80%+ marriages ends in divorce, etc. etc. etc., how do we not think it will not affect the learning of ALL children... HAYLE some children's parents were NEVER married--because hey, that's okay--"Oh, I screwed up by getting pregnant"--poor me... And most women that are getting pregnant are not the teens--it's the >21 year olds that have college educations... Then the option is what? You've seen our "wonderful" GC abortion debates....

So, we're stuck with the LFCT organization and vouchers...

I don't think it will be easy to have a transferance from one school to another...

But that's why anyone concerned about the education of children ought to be involved with their local, county, state, federal education process... Because these folks whom you elect listen to somebody--why not you???

[Kevin]

I can kind of see what voucher system might do for a school with the school my fiancée works at. She's at a charter school. Her school operates under the umbrella of the Oklahoma City Public Schools, but is mostly funded by various private and public grants, funds and the like. The school has a "Charter" which is like its Constitution. It sets out what the school's goal is for each child, how they'll do it, etc.

The Charter school that she teaches at is an academically focused High School. It allows transfers from any district so long as the parents or students provide the transportation. The school is awarded funding based upon the number of students that it has.

All classes at this school are taught to the AP/Pre-AP level. Many cannot cut it and flunk out. Those who misbehave are also given the proverbial boot. The school's goal is to take mostly 'underprivlidged' children who want to go to college and to get them there. Being underprivilged is not a prerequisite to get in, but it's what the school mostly ends up with due its inner-city location.

The parents and students also have a minimum 50 hours of community/school service that they must perform each year. Waivers are sometimes granted when the parents are total deadbeats and there's a really good kid needing a quality educational environment.

It's a very vouchers-like environment. They are very competitive, especially with other charter schools in the area -- it's a limited marketplace for a select group of students who want to excel but don't necessarily have the resources financially to attend a private school.

Having seen this system at work, I fully support it. There has been no 'opening of the flood gates' of transferees wanting in from the worst schools -- her school actually sends teachers and administrators out to recruit from area middle schools.

It's a good system. It actually has me convinced that central Oklahoma City might be a good place to raise a family again.

[hoosier]

Originally posted by ktsnake
I can kind of see what voucher system might do for a school with the school my fiancée works at. She's at a charter school. Her school operates under the umbrella of the Oklahoma City Public Schools, but is mostly funded by various private and public grants, funds and the like. The school has a "Charter" which is like its Constitution. It sets out what the school's goal is for each child, how they'll do it, etc.

The Charter school that she teaches at is an academically focused High School. It allows transfers from any district so long as the parents or students provide the transportation. The school is awarded funding based upon the number of students that it has.

All classes at this school are taught to the AP/Pre-AP level. Many cannot cut it and flunk out. Those who misbehave are also given the proverbial boot. The school's goal is to take mostly 'underprivlidged' children who want to go to college and to get them there. Being underprivilged is not a prerequisite to get in, but it's what the school mostly ends up with due its inner-city location.

The parents and students also have a minimum 50 hours of community/school service that they must perform each year. Waivers are sometimes granted when the parents are total deadbeats and there's a really good kid needing a quality educational environment.

It's a very vouchers-like environment. They are very competitive, especially with other charter schools in the area -- it's a limited marketplace for a select group of students who want to excel but don't necessarily have the resources financially to attend a private school.

Having seen this system at work, I fully support it. There has been no 'opening of the flood gates' of transferees wanting in from the worst schools -- her school actually sends teachers and administrators out to recruit from area middle schools.

It's a good system. It actually has me convinced that central Oklahoma City might be a good place to raise a family again.

Nice report. Hopefully next year OKC will do five more similar schools, and five more the following year.

Is you fiancée a teachers' union member? How powerful is the union there?