Fahrenheit 9/11

[sororitygirl2]

Yes, well done to Michael Moore, because he is provocative. However, he doesn't mean to stop there - he truly wants to brainwash everyone into thinking he is right... or that's how it seems to me.

I don't mind too much. He is talented. I just wish people would quit calling his works documentaries, and start calling them the op.-ed. pieces that they are.

[sweetie adpi]

Originally posted by 33girl

And the part where he got into how the lower income kids who enlist give us the gift of protecting our country - geez, get a clue - I would be surprised if 20%, hell, if 10% of the people who sign up for the armed forces nowadays give 2 craps about defending our country. They want the steady paycheck and school paid for, and half the time are just SHOCKED when they actually get called into service. It's horrible to lose your life in war, any war, but if you sign up and don't know what you're getting into (or willfully delude yourself) I question if it isn't natural selection. Of course there are slimeball recruiters out there - and I think the whole GI Bill system should be revamped so that you don't get $$ for school unless you have been drafted. I think there would be far fewer people signing up for the wrong reasons because of this.

Uno momento, por favor. Just wanna take a moment and point out that I don't find it surprising in the least that kids these days who enlist are surprised by what they find in boot camp and when they are called into service.

After all, the military has won major advertising and marketing awards for the "image overhaul" that it's performed on itself in the media that it uses. There's absolutely no way that you can say they aren't targeting a particular audience with the whole "it's a super-cool adventure" thing going on, that you don't necessarily have to be "book smart" or what not to be a part of it. And they most definitely play on the whole financed education part of it.

If you've grown up in a time where there hasn't been a major war that has been hugely publicized in the media until now, then yes, the reality of what the military is really about could easily get overlooked if you're not from a certain background that perhaps has family in the military, etc.

There's a reason the Army and Navy are case studies in advertising and marketing classes these days, so really, whose fault is it if some eighteen year old kid that doesn't have that background is "deluded" or doesn't know what they are getting into? They certainly aren't showing glossy pictures of what's really going on in the nitty gritty business of the military at the recruitment center...

[KellyB369]

Originally posted by ktsnake
Isn't it ironic that he's a millionaire off of this stuff? He should voluntarily pay higher taxes.

Amen!

[PiEp299]

Originally posted by sweetie adpi
Uno momento, por favor. Just wanna take a moment and point out that I don't find it surprising in the least that kids these days who enlist are surprised by what they find in boot camp and when they are called into service.

I'm gonna call B.S. on that. It's called a History book or a T.V. It's not hard to figure out what the military does. What branch of the government do they think fights these wars? Department of Human Services? They know damn well what they're getting into. They just don't want to earn the perks they get from being in the military.

[damasa]

Originally posted by PiEp299
I'm gonna call B.S. on that. It's called a History book or a T.V. It's not hard to figure out what the military does. What branch of the government do they think fights these wars? Department of Human Services? They know damn well what they're getting into. They just don't want to earn the perks they get from being in the military.

Are you enlisted?

[Kevin]

Originally posted by sweetie adpi

There's a reason the Army and Navy are case studies in advertising and marketing classes these days, so really, whose fault is it if some eighteen year old kid that doesn't have that background is "deluded" or doesn't know what they are getting into? They certainly aren't showing glossy pictures of what's really going on in the nitty gritty business of the military at the recruitment center...

Wow. It's views like this that have really set us back as a culture. If it's not these *adults'* fault, who is it? The media? Their parents? Oh, I get it, they are victims of society.

It's B.S. that people do not want to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions these days. It's even worse when people back them up and make excuses for them. Military forces throughout history have advertised themselves being the glorious thing to do for Kind and Country -- these campaigns have worked well. Why should we change what has worked to recruit young men into the military for thousands of years? Nothing has really changed about military service. Typically, the job of a soldier is to kill or be killed. I don't see how that's complicated, and I don't really feel sorry for these guys when they complain that they just "didn't know". Too bad, so sad.

These kids just need to take responsibility for their decisions and back them up with action. I guess a concept like honor is a little outmoded for some, isn't it?

[PiEp299]

Originally posted by damasa
Are you enlisted?

What does that have to do with what I said? I just don't buy that excuse of not knowing what you got into when you enlisted. How is it that most enlisted personnel know there is a possibility of going to war and some supposedly don't? But, to answer your question...no.

ktsnake worded what I meant better.

[damasa]

Originally posted by PiEp299
What does that have to do with what I said? I just don't buy that excuse of not knowing what you got into when you enlisted. How is it that most enlisted personnel know there is a possibility of going to war and some supposedly don't? But, to answer your question...no.

ktsnake worded what I meant better.

It has to do with a lot of things. If you aren't enlisted then you probably have little to no clue of what it's like to be a soldier. Much less a solider being sent to war. Yes history books tell us things as well as T.V. but they don't give us the entire picture. It's actually more like a slideshow for us.

I understand what ktsnake said and I agree to a certain extent but there is a picture Moore was trying to draw with Fahrenheit 9/11.

People like ktsnake and myself and you have other options besides enlisting in the military. (Well I should say it's easier in many aspects and it is if you think about it.) We go to college and we sometimes go on to complete higher levels of education (such as kt going to law school in which I'll be following in a year). It's not as easy for other people. Some people that aren't as lucky or as advantaged as individuals like soem of us on GC sometimes enlist in the army just to get away from their surroundings in the hopes that they get away but in the same aspect that they never have to go to war. (Yet, many go no matter their feelings, no?)

It goes along with Moore following two Marine recruiters that recruit around the lower class areas of town "because they have trouble recruting in other places."

[Rudey]

None of that is specific to Iraq. That is part of any war, no?

In that case, I guess we should just collapse the army and give up on any war because even if America was attacked, then it would still be these kids who don't have better options...no?

-Rudey

Originally posted by damasa
It has to do with a lot of things. If you aren't enlisted then you probably have little to no clue of what it's like to be a soldier. Much less a solider being sent to war. Yes history books tell us things as well as T.V. but they don't give us the entire picture. It's actually more like a slideshow for us.

I understand what ktsnake said and I agree to a certain extent but there is a picture Moore was trying to draw with Fahrenheit 9/11.

People like ktsnake and myself and you have other options besides enlisting in the military. (Well I should say it's easier in many aspects and it is if you think about it.) We go to college and we sometimes go on to complete higher levels of education (such as kt going to law school in which I'll be following in a year). It's not as easy for other people. Some people that aren't as lucky or as advantaged as individuals like soem of us on GC sometimes enlist in the army just to get away from their surroundings in the hopes that they get away but in the same aspect that they never have to go to war. (Yet, many go no matter their feelings, no?)

It goes along with Moore following two Marine recruiters that recruit around the lower class areas of town "because they have trouble recruting in other places."

[damasa]

Originally posted by Rudey
None of that is specific to Iraq. That is part of any war, no?

In that case, I guess we should just collapse the army and give up on any war because even if America was attacked, then it would still be these kids who don't have better options...no?

-Rudey

I was more or less trying to pinpoint the poor vs. elite debate that moore was "trying" to present. I do however understand that the U.S. must have a strong military and I believe strongly in military spending.

But I don't feel America was attacked by Iraq and if we were in danger of this is still up for much debate.

If we are talking about 9/11 and being attacked we should have gone after the Saudis but that's an entirely different thread.

But I digress because I don't have it in me to debate, I have the funerals of two close friends to attend today and tomorrow.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by damasa
I was more or less trying to pinpoint the poor vs. elite debate that moore was "trying" to present. I do however understand that the U.S. must have a strong military and I believe strongly in military spending.

But I don't feel America was attacked by Iraq and if we were in danger of this is still up for much debate.

If we are talking about 9/11 and being attacked we should have gone after the Saudis but that's an entirely different thread.

But I digress because I don't have it in me to debate, I have the funerals of two close friends to attend today and tomorrow.

Hey I didn't ask if Iraq was a good war or not. I said soldiers die for any war, regardless of good or bad. And in our military, there are more poor than rich so in any war more poor than rich soldiers die.

That's why I see nothing too specific to Iraq by talking about the hardship of soldiers.

-Rudey
--I hope you're ok

[damasa]

Originally posted by Rudey
Hey I didn't ask if Iraq was a good war or not. I said soldiers die for any war, regardless of good or bad. And in our military, there are more poor than rich so in any war more poor than rich soldiers die.

That's why I see nothing too specific to Iraq by talking about the hardship of soldiers.

-Rudey
--I hope you're ok

I have to agree with you there...

As for being ok man, I just don't know anymore, it's a jacked up world we live in.

slight hijack/

If anyone could, send a prayer out to many affected families in my hometown...

Story

Blaine

[Peaches-n-Cream]

Blaine, you have my deepest sympathy. I'm so sorry for your loss.

[PiEp299]

that sucks man, my condolences. That story sounds eerily familiar to the people who live around here.

[RACooper]

Originally posted by damasa
I was more or less trying to pinpoint the poor vs. elite debate that moore was "trying" to present. I do however understand that the U.S. must have a strong military and I believe strongly in military spending.

The ease of recruiting in depressed regions isn't related to only America... the ranks of most militaries in the developed world are filled with recruits from finacially poor regions. However it isn't as simple as Moore makes it out to be... yes it is easier to recruit someone from a poor neighbourhood, just as it is harder to recruit someone from a affluent neighbourhood. It is a product of the economic opportunities of the individual in these neighbourhood's... after all someone from an affluent background has substantially more options available to them, whereas the military may be one of very few options available to someone from a poorer neighbourhood.

When you do recruiting (which I did for 6 months) you have to tailor you approach to the market, and it is much easier to sell someone on the financial benifits if money is a primary motivator....