Wake Forest Chi Omegas Relinquish their charter

[Tom Earp]

Adpiufc,

While I do agree with you, I do disagree!

New College Frosh come to college, the first time they break free of the parental ties are looking for fun! It sounds good to think that they come to College for strictly an Education. Yep, right!

Teaching them to be College Students and members of Greek Organizations is still a big order.

Social life of College is still a very important part of College! Homecoming? Getting drunk and stupid is another! Animal House!

Do I party with My Fellow Alums and the Brothers at The House, yes I do, but I try to keep an eye on them as most of us do if one or some get silly or stupid! Actually Obnoxious is a good word!

[33girl]

Originally posted by doubleblue&gold
I feel really sad for those that think they can't be happy or have fun if they can't drink in their orority house. It isn't the end of the world. if you go somewhere else and think about your sisters instead of yourself.

You also have to know what the laws are in the college community. In my state, it is against the law to have alcohol on state property----that means none on campus and in the dorms. I'm realistic enough to know it happens but it isn't out n the open and there aren't big parties with alcohol on campus.

You can go somewhere else to drink...and have to find a ride home, or drag a driver out to get you. There aren't big parties with alcohol on campus...there are people drinking in secret in their rooms. Real healthy.

Sorry, but none of the "alcohol free housing is good" posts are doing anything to convince me that this is something that truly helps to prevent overuse and misuse of alcohol, truly thinks about what is best for the collegains, and is anything other than a CYA measure.

Like sugar and spice said, we're called social Greeks for a reason. Unfortunately, social is becoming a dirty word. Perhaps going along this path, our fraternities will survive as purely philanthropic and intellectual organizations - and sooner or later, something will come along to give students a social outlet.

[shadokat]

adpiucf--

I have to say that I really agree with you on one point of your post, and that is we are all part of larger national or international organizations. One or two lawsuits, and I guarantee we'll be one or two down on NPC. Can you imagine having your own chapter be the reason an ENTIRE national/international sorority to fold, because of drinking or risky behaviors? What a weight to have to carry on the shoulders of the chapter and the individual.

[doubleblue&gold]

At no time did I ever (or anyone else that I can recall) say alcohol free housing cut down on drinking. What has been said numerous times----it's a Risk Management issue. Respect for your organization and its policies should be enough reason to follow the rules.

Don't get me wrong, I partied in college too. But being "Social Greeks" shouldn't mean you have to drink to be "social"

[adpiucf]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
Adpiufc,

While I do agree with you, I do disagree!

New College Frosh come to college, the first time they break free of the parental ties are looking for fun! It sounds good to think that they come to College for strictly an Education. Yep, right!

Teaching them to be College Students and members of Greek Organizations is still a big order.

Social life of College is still a very important part of College! Hmecoming? Getting drunk and stupid is another! Animal House!

Do I party with My Fellow Alums and the Brothers at The House, yes I do, but I try to keep an eye on them as most of us do if one or some get silly or stupid! Actually Obnoxious is a good word!

Tom, I agree that social life is a very important part of college life. In my post, I merely stated people don't go Greek for the exclusive purpose of study, philanthropy, parties or alcohol. People go Greek to MAKE FRIENDS. It is within that social structure that the studying, philanthropy, parties and alcohol come into play. Some Greeks latch onto one aspect more than others. Those who are less responsible with alcohol and don't see how this affects their chapter, GLO and community are the problem every chapter faces. Or liability, in some cases.

The point of my post is, People don't join GLO's because of the prospect of free beer. They join GLO's to make friends. And because GLO's carry the stigma of being secret and exclusive societies, anything that goes wrong and becomes public will become the subject of high scrutiny, debate and ridicule-- not only for the chapter where the incident has occurred, but its national HQ, its other chapters, the university where the event occurred and all Greeks.

[33girl]

Originally posted by doubleblue&gold
At no time did I ever (or anyone else that I can recall) say alcohol free housing cut down on drinking. What has been said numerous times----it's a Risk Management issue. Respect for your organization and its policies should be enough reason to follow the rules.

I personally am more concerned about my sisters' health and safety. If it were not for sisters, we wouldn't have organizations. If that makes me a horrible disloyal person, well, so be it.

I still remember one of my friends telling me about her experience as an XYZ advisor. She had told the girls that anytime they needed a ride, to prevent them from drunk driving, they were to call her. XYZ HQ ordered her to cease this practice as it could make them open to lawsuits. My friend saw her role as advisor as one of letting the women make small mistakes in order to learn, but keeping them safe from huge ones. She finally became so disillusioned she left her position, and pretty much has nothing to do with XYZ anymore.

And as a gentle reminder, policies are not set in stone. They are supposed to change with the times. If they hadn't, many of us would not have African-American, Asian, Jewish or Catholic sisters or brothers.

[33girl]

Articles from the Wake Forest paper:

http://ogb.wfu.edu/news/news_more.php?id=590_0_9_0_C

http://ogb.wfu.edu/editorials/editor...id=579_0_8_0_C

[Nhfulmer]

I've been following this thread for several days. It seems to me that although we all regret the possible loss of the Chi Omega chapter at Wake Forest, the views are pretty much split between collegiates and alumnae/alumni. The collegiates do not seem to grasp the consequences of not following fraternity/sorority guidelines. Most of the alumnae/alumni recognize the hard facts of what a law suit can do to a national organization. Believe me, we don't like it but we do know that unresponsible behavior by one or two chapters can bankrupt the entire national GLO. I know that my name has been on the line as an advisor as is my husband's as a current advisor and national officer. The policies HAVE to be in place and, yes, the collegiates have to adhere to them. We all know that alcohol will be a part of the college experience but even collegiates have to learn to be responsible in their drinking and by the very beliefs of fraternities and sororities, each member must accept responsibility for his/her brothers and sisters.

It is a shame that the actions of a few must affect so many. As one sorority member mentioned, she cannot even have a glass of wine in the sorority house. The reason for that is that some would not stop with one or two glasses of wine and therein lies the problem.

Get a grip on reality - the many law suits that have already been filed and settled should tell you that this is the way things are! Until people are not so quick to sue, it will remain this way. The insurance companies only agree to cover the groups if they are following the policies - that is a fact!

I suggest that collegiates get over the belief that they are entitled to endanger themselves and others. There is a responsible way to handling "partying" -- learn it!

Sorry this has been so rambling. I have been thinking about these posts for a day or two and discussing them with my husband. These are the random thoughts that resulted.

[GeekyPenguin]

I've thought a lot about alcohol free housing, and I hate it. For me, it wasn't an issue, because I was underage the entire time I lived in our house. However, it's a big issue for my chapter. At our campus you can't move out of the dorms until junior year, when most people are either already 21 or will be shortly. The girls then have to pay the same rent they would pay for a studio apartment for a shared bedroom in the house, where they have to give up a lot of priviledges. If we could live in as sophomores, I don't think it would be as large of an issue, but we have an awful time trying to fill our house - who wants to go from the dorms where they could have overnight guests, drink in their rooms, etc, to a house where they are still sharing a room but cannot drink and have restrictions placed on guests? I know for a fact we wouldn't have parties because there is nowhere to have them - but if girls were allowed to have wine/beer/whatever in their rooms, I don't see how much trouble that could possibly cause. Girls do come home drunk - wouldn't we rather have them be able to drink at home than pass out on XYZ's front lawn? Not everyone in college drinks - I don't, but I understand that my sisters want to.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Nhfulmer
Believe me, we don't like it but we do know that unresponsible behavior by one or two chapters can bankrupt the entire national GLO. I know that my name has been on the line as an advisor as is my husband's as a current advisor and national officer. The policies HAVE to be in place and, yes, the collegiates have to adhere to them. We all know that alcohol will be a part of the college experience but even collegiates have to learn to be responsible in their drinking and by the very beliefs of fraternities and sororities, each member must accept responsibility for his/her brothers and sisters.

Get a grip on reality - the many law suits that have already been filed and settled should tell you that this is the way things are! Until people are not so quick to sue, it will remain this way. The insurance companies only agree to cover the groups if they are following the policies - that is a fact!

I suggest that collegiates get over the belief that they are entitled to endanger themselves and others. There is a responsible way to handling "partying" -- learn it!

It really does hit a lot closer to home when it's your name that's on the line as an advisor of division/national officer, and realize how real these problems are.

Too bad that every undergraduate/collegiate member doesn't receive the Risk Management newsletters that we do.

Scary stuff.

[adpiucf]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
I've thought a lot about alcohol free housing, and I hate it... I don't see how much trouble that could possibly cause. Girls do come home drunk - wouldn't we rather have them be able to drink at home than pass out on XYZ's front lawn? Not everyone in college drinks - I don't, but I understand that my sisters want to.

GeekyPenguin,

I respect your thoughts completely-- that a woman aged 21+ should be allowed to drink within her own home, with the intention that it is better to "get silly" within one's own four walls than at a location or function where alcohol is served. That does make sense. We don't want our sisters acting out of control in public. So if they did it at home, it would be out of the public eye.

However, a sorority house is not a typical residence. It is owned by the sorority and it is on university property. The sorority takes part in a social insurance policy. If a member is endangered within a sorority function or on sorority grounds because sorority policies were not followed, the sorority can lose its insurance coverage, and every member of the sorority can be held liable, including family members (who are going to have a lot more money than their college student child). In some instances, the future wages of the sorority members can be garnished in order to pay off the lawsuit settlement. I know fraternities are allowed to have alcohol in their houses, but their insurance costs are much, much greater than the sororities, and many fraternities are beginning to go "dry" because of these huge costs.

This may not seem fair to some but if a person were to become incapacitated at another place, say a friend's home, her family might retaliate by suing the renter, the home owner and the others at the party in order to make good on their child's medical expenses, etc. There have been many cases like this, some having nothing to do with Greek life-- people are more likely to go after those with the most money in a case of liabilty, and an organization offers a greater prospect of a payoff than an individual. I was in a car accident in college--- hit by a drunk driver who was killed. He had no insurance and no money. My family had to sue both our own insurance AND the insurance of the driver of the car I was in (one of my closest friends!) just to pay my medical bills! We're still great friends with the girls who were in our car, but isn't that absurd? Still, when you're injured, someone has to be liable. The bills don't just go away.

Please consider that within each sorority, your chapter is a member of a greater group-- the national org. And every chapter within the org has to be held accountable to follow the sorority policies so we prevent liability issues and the ultimate folding of the national group.

If women want to drink in their home, they have the option of not living in the sorority house. If the chapter makes it a requirement to live-in, you have the right to amend the bylaws. Or, pay the live-in dues and live somewhere else. There are a good number of sorority women who do this. Or, don't have a chapter house.

The insurance policies will not change. Chi-O at Wake Forest absorbed Fideles local sorority for the mere reason that Fideles (and the other locals) could not afford to take on their own insurance policies, and in order to maintain the existence as social organizations needed to be part of a national social group.

I'm sorry this post is so long, and I am not attacking your thoughts or ideas. I am only explaining why women may not have alcohol in the house. I hope you will not feel like I have attacked your viewpoint. 21+ people are of age to drink, but there are some places where they many not, and there are enough places to consume alcohol in other places to where they should not have to feel as though their rights are not being considered.

I also want to point out that not only sororities and fraternities are covered by policies and rules and "umbrella"-type policies. It happens in the "real world," too. I used to work for a theme park owned by a larger company. We ran a 1/4'ly sweepstakes through our park under the sweepstakes licensing of our parent company. Every "I" had to be dotted and every "T" crossed on the legal disclaimers and methods by which we ran this sweepstakes, or we would put our parent company in jeopardy and lose the sweepstakes license for the ENTIRE company. Our parent company does a lot of promotions and sweeps; can you imagine if the subsidiary I worked for had been just a little careless and lost the right to run the sweeps for the entire company? By the way, that parent company was (and still is) Anheuser-Busch. Can you imagine all the Bud promotions in your area alone? Imagine not being able to do those because a regional theme park promotion wasn't properly executed? Think about all the money Bud would lose, the attention they would lose and the PR.

If we become part of a group, we need to respect the rules of that group. They are the rules for a reason.

[GeekyPenguin]

I entirely agree with you, adpiucf - I dislike the rules, but they are still rules we have to follow. I think a big issue with my chapter is that our house is a) not owned by the sorority and b) not on university property. Last semester I was the only girl living in the house who wasn't of age, and I know it drove some of the other sisters crazy, not because they wanted to have raging keggers, but because they couldn't have a glass of wine with dinner or a beer after a long day.

[33girl]

Originally posted by GeekyPenguin
I think a big issue with my chapter is that our house is a) not owned by the sorority and b) not on university property. Last semester I was the only girl living in the house who wasn't of age, and I know it drove some of the other sisters crazy, not because they wanted to have raging keggers, but because they couldn't have a glass of wine with dinner or a beer after a long day.

This is EXACTLY the problem at Clarion and pretty much every other state school. If the sorority owned the house or the land, fine, they can tell us to do whatever, but (for the most part) we don't even have housing corps. It's pretty hard to swallow someone coming in and telling you what to do when they have absolutely no financial or legal ties to the dwelling, other than members living in it and a composite hanging on the wall. It doesn't even matter if you don't have letters on the house - the alcohol free rules still apply, which blows.

And I've heard the "duck" argument far too many times, so unless you want to get socked with a tube sock full of wood screws, don't go there. If that were the truth, the university athletic department would be getting sued for parties that got out of hand at the football/wrestling/swimmers house.

[DeltAlum]

All of your arguments make perfect sense on paper.

We ALL agree that in a perfect world, that's the way it should be.

Except that if a group of GLO members do things together, legally it can be considered a sponsored or sanctioned event of the organization. Which makes the organization liable.

So, I suppose there are two legitimate choices in that kind of case. Obey the rules or get out of the organization.

Or, of course, continue status quo and pray you don't get caught.

[33girl]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
All of your arguments make perfect sense on paper.

We ALL agree that in a perfect world, that's the way it should be.

Except that if a group of GLO members do things together, legally it can be considered a sponsored or sanctioned event of the organization. Which makes the organization liable.

The thing about that argument is it ONLY seems to apply to social Greek organizations.

If my friends and I are all in the American Marketing Association, and go out drinking, no one considers it an AMA event. We DID have 5 members - half our chapter - of Alpha Phi Omega living in a house together and often had parties there. No one called it the "A Phi O house."

Where is the legality in that?? It sounds more like discrimination to me, furthered by the GLOs' headquarters.