Has the tradition of Legacies outgrown its usefulness?

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Would you enjoy having a choice of only 3-4 groups at a campus of 25,000 because only the "strongest" groups have survived?

[Hijack, ignore if you want]

I am not disagreeing here but it is something to think about...while I too think it would lead to diminishing numbers of chapters, it seems to work very well for fraternities. Somehow, like sororities, some are pegged as being the "strongest" fraternities but the overwhelming majority of chapters get similar sized pledge classes every year. It is true that fraternities disappear much quicker than sororities, but they also appear quickly and there are usually more fraternal GLOs than sororities. I understand this to be true even in the most competitive SEC campuses for the fraternities.

Now would this be the same for girls? Maybe not. I do feel that our gender is, on average (there are obviously exceptions), more likely to aim for the "highest status" than the guys are. I feel like even though many of my friends now would say "I loved XYZ from Day #1!", I remember back in the dorms and they had their hearts set on ABC until they got cut after the second round or something like that.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

Now would this be the same for girls? Maybe not. I do feel that our gender is, on average (there are obviously exceptions), more likely to aim for the "highest status" than the guys are. I feel like even though many of my friends now would say "I loved XYZ from Day #1!", I remember back in the dorms and they had their hearts set on ABC until they got cut after the second round or something like that.

I know I've said this before, but I believe on the whole the men believe they make the fraternity, and the women believe the sorority makes them. You see it on here...the guys have joined a crap fraternity, and they say "what can I do to fix it?" The girls have joined a crap sorority, and they say "how can I get out of it?" Again, this is a very sweeping generalization.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I know I've said this before, but I believe on the whole the men believe they make the fraternity, and the women believe the sorority makes them. You see it on here...the guys have joined a crap fraternity, and they say "what can I do to fix it?" The girls have joined a crap sorority, and they say "how can I get out of it?" Again, this is a very sweeping generalization.

Actually that is a very simple and intelligent way to put it. I agree with you completely. I think guys tend to join the house where their personality fits the best, regardless of status, and then work their asses off to raise their status but keep the "vibe" the same.

[itb]

@DGTess: Note that there was a caveat: " if little Suzie was of dubious moral character or legal status that she would NOT be offered a bid". So a bid is not offered blindly.
@33Girl: Quotas are still an atificial limit on size, and as an extension an artificial limit on the size of an eritire house is just as silly. A rushee could decide if they want to be a member of a large house, just as easily as they could decide to be a member of a smaller house. Or they could choose based on belief or fit. But you take away a choice if you impose quotas. If you extrapolate the quota system to other things, does that mean that you should limit the size of members into other college club/organization (like the Glee club or Band or the Accounting Club)? Should it be applied to church sizes? Or political parties? Or to cities or states? Of course not, because it IS artificial. But the SIZE of an organization will work itself out over time. Some people may LIKE large groups, and others may NOT.

The problem with legacies is exasperated by miscommunication of the chapter to the mother/grandmother/aunt. Often a call to them could ease the problem, because information does get shared. And it is important to remember that this applies to ALL GLOs, male or female.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by itb

But the SIZE of an organization will work itself out over time. Some people may LIKE large groups, and others may NOT.

I agree with you to a point. I personally chose to join a group that was smaller because it was smaller. However, you are talking about a difference of 15 people, not 40-50-60 as can happen at a Ole Miss type school. I also looked at every sorority, even though it was not required when I rushed.

The problem is that as long as national groups keep giving awards that are based on size (meeting total/quota) rather than percentage of members retained, girls are going to believe that bigger is better. And, I think that's just an American viewpoint in general. Bigger just through dint of more members paying dues, has nicer housing and more opportunities (social and educational). Bigger keeps getting bigger, smaller dies out and there IS no choice but bigger. Unfortunately, that just seems to be the way that females think.

So, until we can entirely change that mindset, using quota/total is the lesser of two evils (the other evil being chapters closing).

[FSUZeta]

it is often the same with young women when they decide who to date. most often they try to date the most attractive, popular guy they can-they rarely aspire to date the campus dork. ten years down the road, the most popular guy in college may still be stuck in the "frat boy" mentality, while campus dork has blossomed into a successful, suave individual, but we rarely look that far in the future and we can't change human nature.

[WCsweet<3]

On the topic of legacies, I have been wondering lately about what happens if the person you are a legacy to is deceased? For instance, while ADPi was not on either of my campuses, if I had gone through recruitment what should I have done as my grandmother was a member, but had died decades ago? Should I have tracked down another ADPi and told them or does the legacy status end with the death of the member? I have a feeling that might vary depending on what sorority we are talking about and I do not mean to single out ADPi that was only an example. I was just wondering if there was a procedure to go through.

[BlueCarnation]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

On the topic of legacies, I have been wondering lately about what happens if the person you are a legacy to is deceased? For instance, while ADPi was not on either of my campuses, if I had gone through recruitment what should I have done as my grandmother was a member, but had died decades ago? Should I have tracked down another ADPi and told them or does the legacy status end with the death of the member? I have a feeling that might vary depending on what sorority we are talking about and I do not mean to single out ADPi that was only an example. I was just wondering if there was a procedure to go through.

I don't think it matters. My grandmother was deceased when I went through, but I was still considered a legacy. Why would it matter whether they were alive or not?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

On the topic of legacies, I have been wondering lately about what happens if the person you are a legacy to is deceased? For instance, while ADPi was not on either of my campuses, if I had gone through recruitment what should I have done as my grandmother was a member, but had died decades ago? Should I have tracked down another ADPi and told them or does the legacy status end with the death of the member? I have a feeling that might vary depending on what sorority we are talking about and I do not mean to single out ADPi that was only an example. I was just wondering if there was a procedure to go through.

I can't speak for other sororities, but as for mine, you are still a legacy even if the sister/mother/grandma is deceased.

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

Isn't there a legacy form to fill out and send to the chapter? I wouldn't have known my grandmother's pin number or anything like that.

We do have space on our rec form to indicate if the rec is for a legacy (not a separate form), but I don't believe it asks for the relative's badge number. I believe it only asks for her name, chapter and initiation date. The recruitment director will use that info to verify her legacy status.

[VandalSquirrel]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

On the topic of legacies, I have been wondering lately about what happens if the person you are a legacy to is deceased? For instance, while ADPi was not on either of my campuses, if I had gone through recruitment what should I have done as my grandmother was a member, but had died decades ago? Should I have tracked down another ADPi and told them or does the legacy status end with the death of the member? I have a feeling that might vary depending on what sorority we are talking about and I do not mean to single out ADPi that was only an example. I was just wondering if there was a procedure to go through.

My grandmother is deceased and another alumna sent in the form to Alpha Gam. I have also done that for a woman who wasn't a legacy per our policy, but she was close to the relative and I mentioned that in a letter.

[WCsweet<3]

Isn't there a legacy form to fill out and send to the chapter? I wouldn't have known my grandmother's pin number or anything like that.

[TXalum1]

Originally Posted by WCsweet<3

Isn't there a legacy form to fill out and send to the chapter? I wouldn't have known my grandmother's pin number or anything like that.

You are thinking about the Legacy Introduction form. It was in the Spring 2009 issue of the magazine. It just asks for basic info, no badge numbers, etc. All you need is the chapter and initiation year, and you could guess at the year and write "deceased" on the address line. You still have to fill in a reference form. They suggest having the alum staple them together even though they duplicate some of the information.

One of my friends did that when her daughters went through recruitment, but we didn't include it with my references on her daughters. She sent it to the chapter with a note.

[WCsweet<3]

Ah okay thank you. The thought had popped into my head when reading this thread and while I know what to do for KD, I wasn't sure about other sororities.

[Zillini]

This year we had a legacy PNM whose mother was deceased. Mom's pledge sisters jumped in and a bunch of them sent Intros and Recs just to make sure she was "covered". The daughter is now one of our new members.

[lyrelyre]

Originally Posted by itb

To put it bluntly, if there wasn't a quota system, wouldn't all legacies be offered a bid, provided they were of appropriate moral character? After all, I think that the legacies' mother/sister/aunt/grandmother/(and so forth) would understand if little Suzie was of dubious moral character or legal status that she would NOT be offered a bid. The real problem is that the chapters do a POOR job of talking to the family and keeping them informed, when they OUGHT to be forthright. For example, if little Suzie was told BEFORE she would not be offered a legacy bid, I'm sure little Suzie would move on. But the chapter does not always work like that. In truth, they work in secret and keep it secretive. The chapter and the national HAVE to be in communication with their members on their legacies; it's when they are NOT that problems occur.

To put it bluntly: no, all legacies would not be offered a bid if there wasn’t a quota system. Sometimes there are legacies who are perfectly nice and meet the membership criteria but do not have that elusive “fit” for which all chapters are looking. Further, most people don’t know if their daughter/niece/granddaughter is of “dubious moral character” and, as a recruitment advisor, I’m not going to be the one to slander someone to a family member even if that family member is a fellow alumna. Additionally, a chapter cannot have contact with a PNM or her family.

Originally Posted by 33girl

Once again I ask - would either of you enjoy being in a chapter with 400 members? Seriously?

Would you enjoy having a choice of only 3-4 groups at a campus of 25,000 because only the "strongest" groups have survived?

Moreover, the strongest groups aren’t going to be willing to pledge every PNM. This leads to 3-4 “strong” groups and a large number of women being left out of Greek life.

Originally Posted by TSteven

So if I understand what everyone seems to be saying, the issue seems to be that some chapters have more legacies than they can bid. That there can be legacies that are a good fit and are desirable *and* the legacy herself wants to be a member. Yet due to quota etc., she may be released.

If that is the issue, then what about the following.

HQs consider changing their rules regarding Alumnae Initiation (gasp!) so that legacies may "seek" (don't know the correct terminology) membership in their legacy sorority. If ABC currently does not allow AI, they would *now* do so *if* the women was a legacy *and* she was a good fit. A sort of special consideration or exception as the case may be.

To be clear, AI would not be a guarantee at all. And may not be offered or allowed for "just anyone".

The way I envision this is that a chapter will still cut legacies and extend bids to those they want. However, for the legacy that is cut and still wants to an ABC, she would have the ability to seek membership as an alumnae. She would not be guaranteed it, but have the ability to seek it. Thus some NPC HQs would have to change their policy on AI.

Now it is true that the girl may not have benefited by having been an undergraduate member of ABC. But if she was "groomed" to be an ABC, and really wants it, and would be a good fit as an alum, then why allow it? The undergrad chapter is not compromised at all. For what it is worth, something similar seems to work well with NPHC sororities.

Finally, my intent is not to have a "ABC does not offer AI" discussion. But to have HQs think *Outside The Box*. To discuss ways that a legacy - who truly sees herself as an ABC - have a way to be an ABC and be a production member as well. Something along this line might be a partial solution to what will most likely continue to be the *more legacies than bids* issue.

Allowing legacies to AI if they meet membership criteria would exacerbate the situation. You would potentially be creating even more legacies that could not be offered bids in the future. Not to mention that if the undergraduate chapter would have been “compromised” by her membership, I most likely do not want her as a sister through AI.

Trust me; chapters do not release PNMs, especially legacies, that they want as members. Chapters release PNMs that they would take as members and invite back the PNMs to whom they would like to offer bids.