It happened again...

[Kevin]

Originally posted by librasoul22


Second of all, you are really skewing the concept of tolerance to fit your argument. Gay people having a parade is the same thing as someone wearing blackface? Can you please break that one down for me? Is there some sordid history of people putting on gayface in order to mock and belittle religious people? Help me out.

Also the fact that you don't believe you have racist thoughts doesn't mean you do not. I did mean YOU, and if it hit close to home, then maybe you should do some introspection. It wasn't meant to be an insult, just my point of view.

Must there be a sordid history to make it similar? Please do not get me wrong I am NOT defending what these people did. I think I've said this enough times that maybe you'd pick up on it but I will continue to repeat myself until you do.

My point in using the gay pride parades is that yes, for some religious folks a gay pride parade is basically laughing at everything that they cherish. Is this a valid viewpoint for me? Nope. I'm fine with it but others are not. So yes, in their mind it does belittle their culture.

It's a matter of perspective. Sometimes people get so wrapped up in their own agendas that they can not be objective enough to see that there are other people out there with different values, beliefs, attitudes than themselves. That is my problem with our culture that says that I *MUST* be accepted and if you do not accept me you must *NOT* be accepted.

Let's attempt not to make this a personal thing. I take great offense to you calling me a racist. You don't know me well enough and if you'd read what I've posted I don't see where exactly you're getting that I am one. The very fact that I am sitting here discussing these things with you to clarify my intentions should be enough to help you understand this. I find racism in any form to be appalling BUT it is not the role of government or law enforcement to regulate in this area. Churches, parents, the media, organizations all have the duty to be positive influences in this area and very often they have failed to do this.

And AGAIN I will say... Should Kappa Sigma do something about this? Probably. Should UT? Nope.. they're a government organization and it should not be their role to regulate speech.

[librasoul22]

I did not call you a racist. I simply applied your own argument to you. If it works for one, it must work for all, right? I fully agree with the statement that no one can govern one's THOUGHTS, however, my perception of your earlier posts was that these actions should go unpunished. Your last post clarified a bit for me...thank you.

Also, it is not that I disagree, it is just that your analogy doesn't FIT. Gay people ARE gay. They do not portray gay people just for purposes of a parade. Also, they would not need parades is they weren't oppressed and discriminated against by the very people you say they are "offending."

People are not BLACKFACE. People ARE gay. People are not BLACKFACE. Blackface is makeup that one puts on in order to portray another person. Do you see the difference?

Whether people agree with homosexuality or not is not even the same because it is not a MASK or a PORTRAYAL. Blackface, on the other hand, is. That is the issue I have with your analogy.

Originally posted by ktsnake


Must there be a sordid history to make it similar? Please do not get me wrong I am NOT defending what these people did. I think I've said this enough times that maybe you'd pick up on it but I will continue to repeat myself until you do.

My point in using the gay pride parades is that yes, for some religious folks a gay pride parade is basically laughing at everything that they cherish. Is this a valid viewpoint for me? Nope. I'm fine with it but others are not. So yes, in their mind it does belittle their culture.

It's a matter of perspective. Sometimes people get so wrapped up in their own agendas that they can not be objective enough to see that there are other people out there with different values, beliefs, attitudes than themselves. That is my problem with our culture that says that I *MUST* be accepted and if you do not accept me you must *NOT* be accepted.

Let's attempt not to make this a personal thing. I take great offense to you calling me a racist. You don't know me well enough and if you'd read what I've posted I don't see where exactly you're getting that I am one. The very fact that I am sitting here discussing these things with you to clarify my intentions should be enough to help you understand this. I find racism in any form to be appalling BUT it is not the role of government or law enforcement to regulate in this area. Churches, parents, the media, organizations all have the duty to be positive influences in this area and very often they have failed to do this.

And AGAIN I will say... Should Kappa Sigma do something about this? Probably. Should UT? Nope.. they're a government organization and it should not be their role to regulate speech.

[Kevin]

Trying to find common ground here

The analogy aside... You do recognize that whether or not it is offensive is a matter of perception for each person -- and that they must make that judgement for themselves. Nothing is inherently offensive. For these kids it may not have had an offensive meaning. For about 99% of people it does. Does that mean it's right or wrong? That's a judgement each individual has to make for themselves.

Because of that I think that it is up to the organization that they belong to and other organizations and individuals that they associate with (or those they may not) to dictate what course of action should be taken in response to their idiocy. Not a governmental institution in any way, shape or form.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by librasoul22
[B]THESE PEOPLE KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS WRONG. Viruous pointed it out, but you all are ignoring that for some reason.

1. They had recently held a seminar at UofT explaining why blackface was bad.

2. The men in question said they did not want another "Auburn incident" and lied about their fraternal membership to someone who questioned them.

THEY KNEW. PERIOD.

So, it's guilty until proven innocent?

I'm not, in any way, defending the use of blackface by anyone. What I am saying is that it is possible that these guys didn't realize they were offending.

I went back to the original article, to be sure I was remembering it correctly...

It was not one of the men in question, but the Chapter President who made the "Auburn" comment.

To quote the article...

"Jackson says he saw six people walking down the back stairwell of RT's with smudged faces. They weren't completely black, but he says they looked like they'd been wiped off."

Is it possible that the president saw the six men and took action to get them to wipe off the blackface because he knew it was wrong, but perhaps they didn't? (Before any asks, I know it's also possible they wiped it off to "destroy" evidence.)

Another quote...

"UT put on a sensitivity program for fraternities not long ago, explaining why painting faces black is so offensive. The Kappa Sigma fraternity was there. "In light of that, I am surprised this could happen," Rogers says."

But who attended the program. All Greeks? Chapter officers? Were the offending men at the program?

Did the information trickle down to the members?

We are generally critical when anyone is "convicted" by the media. Are we on the verge of doing the same thing here?

What these guys did is offensive. There's no doubt. The administration at UT is "appalled." They should be. They say they will take action. They should.

The question in my mind is whether the chapter members did it with malice or out of ignorance. To put it another way, are they bad people, or just dumber than a brick. In the instances (ie. Auburn)where there were others involved dressed as KKK members, there is no doubt in my mind that pre-meditation existed.

I've sat on juries. They tell you you must believe someone is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

I think there is at least the possibilitiy that these guys didn't realize what they were doing. I don't know why I think that except for the seemingly open reply when the first man was challenged, "I'm impersonating Louis Armstrong." for some reason, that just doesn't seem malicious to me.

But, as I said earlier, I'm prone to give the benefit of the doubt until I know for sure about something or someone's intentions.

[UDZETA]

This is a very touchy subject. On one hand I find it awful that people would be racist enough to pain themselves black or white. On the another hand I don't think they meant any harm by it. Just the other day my friend (who is white) asked me what I thought of him dressing up as Ja Rule and I could be J-lo. Although I thought it would be a cute idea I knew that people might find it to be disrespectful. I can understand why people get up set. Back in the early 1920's white men would paint their faces black and do different theatre shows. It was something that was meant to be disrespectful and it came across that way. But people, mainly whites found it enjoyable. If people are going to be up set about students doing it then they should also be up set about those on TV shows who are doing it.

[cash78mere]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84
Well Said!

and cash78mere, that is just a figure of speech. It is not just whites who are referred to as "folks". Take a look at the AKA or DST forums and you can see that we say black folks too. Just an expression rising from black english.

i understand, but i still don't like it.

[Tom Earp]

In reading these posts, it seems by the up roar that the Blacks are the only ones be talked down about!

Is there not racisim in all races?

Dont the Blacks have racist attitudes against the whites?

Do Blacks or whites have racist ideas about the other races and vice versa?!

Blacks are not the only so called in your words, the down trodden race!

I am just saying that it does get tiresome when you pronouce your ideas on everyone else on the GC Site. If you get a post and try expalining then most of us are attacked! Is that proving what you truely think?

I am white, so I am the devil who put the Blacks in Bondage years ago.

My Black Friends are not Tokens as one so indelicatly put it! They are my friends because they are,not what color they are!

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by UDZETA
This is a very touchy subject. On one hand I find it awful that people would be racist enough to pain themselves black or white. On the another hand I don't think they meant any harm by it. Just the other day my friend (who is white) asked me what I thought of him dressing up as Ja Rule and I could be J-lo. Although I thought it would be a cute idea I knew that people might find it to be disrespective. I can understand why people get up set. Back in the early 1920's white men would paint their faces black and do different theatre shows. It was something that was meant to be disrespectful and it came across that way. But people, mainly white found it enjoyable. If people are going to be up set about students doing it then they should also be up set about those on TV shows that are doing it.

Point blank, even if some folks do not see the historical relevance with BLACKFACE, there still lies a problem. The problem is not with someone who is white (using your example) wanting to "dress up" as Ja Rule or any other AfAm but it is with the fact of using BLACKFACE to add to your costume!! Why is it necessary??!!?????? If you were going to dress up as J-Lo, would you done "BROWNFACE"as well?

Additionally, to turn the table, if someone black dressed up as Britney Spears and felt the need to put on WHITE or BONE colored make-up, then to me, that is soooo inappropriate as well. Its just not necessary.

I have seen and know black folks that have dressed up as a white person before (i.e. Abe Lincoln) and he were still able to convey the image as to who he was portraying, without the white make-up.

And Tom, get over yourself!! I wasn't going to respond to your dribble, but it seems like EVERYTIME a discussion of this nature comes up (which by the way, I thought this discussion was being debating very maturely and in ways that are reflective of the college educated ) herein comes your posts filled with the " YOU PEOPLE" or "THE BLACKS" comments. THis thread is about BLACKFACE and its appropriateness.....let's stick to the topic at hand.

[Honeykiss1974]

I too agree that the accused fraternity members knew what they were doing was wrong. Why? Because:

1. When asked by the BSU member, the fraternity member felt the need to l ie ans say he was a member of an BGLO. Why lie if you are doing something that you think is ok?

2. Statements such as "We didn't want this to be another Auburn incident"?

3. The RECENT seminar regarding the history and inappropriateness of the use of blackface.

In regards to punishment, I am not sure. I mean, how do you punish the stupid? If they have already been through some type of ethnic or sensitivity training, really the only thing left would be some type of punishment handed down from the fraternity's HQ. I dunno, these are just things coming off the top of my head.

I concur with the GC're that stated that don't these boys realize that they have other fraternity brothers that are of other ethnicities? How do they think this makes them feel about there so-called brothers or maybe even their fraternity as a whole?

And additionally, why is it men that have been doing these types of things?

[Kevin]

Originally posted by Tom Earp
In reading these posts, it seems by the up roar that the Blacks are the only ones be talked down about!

Is there not racisim in all races?

Dont the Blacks have racist attitudes against the whites?

Do Blacks or whites have racist ideas about the other races and vice versa?!

Blacks are not the only so called in your words, the down trodden race!

I am just saying that it does get tiresome when you pronouce your ideas on everyone else on the GC Site. If you get a post and try expalining then most of us are attacked! Is that proving what you truely think?

I am white, so I am the devil who put the Blacks in Bondage years ago.

My Black Friends are not Tokens as one so indelicatly put it! They are my friends because they are,not what color they are!

Tom, this has already been discussed at length. Blacks cannot be racist. See the "Prejudism" thread from a few months back therein lies your answer

[xp2k]

Originally posted by ktsnake

Tom, this has already been discussed at length. Blacks cannot be racist. See the "Prejudism" thread from a few months back therein lies your answer

African American's are human, therefore they are capable of racism, prejudice and every other type of negative emotion.

This post, for the most part, has been handled rather intelligently and maturely.

Your sarcasm, ktsnake, was not necessary, nor does it help your argument (or your unusual sense of logic).

As for Tom, this topic is not about slavery, its about blackface.

No we are not the only "downtrodden race", (my father is Native American, and if anyone has ANY reason to complain, its him and his ancestors) but we (African Americans) have been dealt our share of bad cards for past few, I dont know, centuries, and we've just started gaining ground the past few decades.

Little incedents like this dont help at all. Believe it or not, African-Americans would love to give the benefit of the doubt. However, from personal experience, its seems like whenever you let your guard down, you're surpised (in the negative sense) by the least likely of people...(and I'm sure there are posters out there who know what I'm talking about)

Just becuase you're tired of hearing black people complain about racism in America and the world, it does not mean that they are wrong or that there isnt a problem.

[Tom Earp]

Yes, there is still a problem, but why wear it like sack cloth and ashes?

I do not condone any of it at all and would be upset if any of my Bothers did somethiing like this!

I dont think that it goes only one way, but there have over the ages many people who have been used and abused, and for taht fact is still going on not at just the black level!

Black face, I agree with KTSNAKE, If someone is portraying Louis Armstrong, how do they not do the coloring! It may have been very well out of respect for a great Man who I have met!

He was not Black, Red, White or any other color, He was a mucisian and was damn good and proud of it.

He Was Louis Armstrong.

[librasoul22]

ktsnake:

Trying to find common ground here
The analogy aside... You do recognize that whether or not it is offensive is a matter of perception for each person -- and that they must make that judgement for themselves. Nothing is inherently offensive. For these kids it may not have had an offensive meaning. For about 99% of people it does. Does that mean it's right or wrong? That's a judgement each individual has to make for themselves.

Because of that I think that it is up to the organization that they belong to and other organizations and individuals that they associate with (or those they may not) to dictate what course of action should be taken in response to their idiocy. Not a governmental institution in any way, shape or form.

Agreed. Common ground acheived!

Tom Earp. Sorry sir, but your ancestors simply did NOT suffer anywhere near as much as "minorities" did. Unless you are Jewish, Black, or Native Amercian, which obviously you are not. You have been very miseducated, and continue to argue with points that have no basis in logic. With each post, you minimalize history and distort the facts. If you want, you can pm me and we can have a mature discussion.

Also, one last thing, do not put words in ktsnake's mouth. He never said that one needed "coloring" to portray Armstrong. In fact, he explicity said he disagreed with the idea of blackface altogether. Do you even read before you post?

xp2k, actually ktsnake is CORRECT in his statement about racism. As an Native/African American, you should realize that. Hate to beat this horse which is, by now, in the final stages of rigor mortis, but racism involves POWER...which automatically excludes ANY minority in this country.

You know what? If ANYONE on this forum wants to take this discussion up via pm, with no getting defensive, only listening to each other's ideas, please pm me. I would love to talk about this in a mature fashion, with each party hoping to gain insight into the other's point of view.

END NOTE: WHOEVER THINKS BLACK PEOPLE ARE JUST DWELLING IN THE PAST, PLEASE SPEAK UP. No one will blast you. Just say what you think. I would love to dialogue about that.

[xp2k]

Librasoul

I agree with a majority of what you say, however, I do not agree about racism.

Racism does not involve power. You do not need power to hate or to have bad feelings or predetermined judgement about others.

You do however need power to use hatred in a negative manner against an entire group, which is why (at least I believe) "reverse discrimination" is theoretically impossible.

If you mean that African Americans can not be racist in the capacity of the latter, then I can agree.

But...otherwise I disagree...I think that all human's have the fundamental capacity to be bad or good.


Xp2k

[Kevin]

Originally posted by xp2k
Originally posted by ktsnake

African American's are human, therefore they are capable of racism, prejudice and every other type of negative emotion.

This post, for the most part, has been handled rather intelligently and maturely.

Your sarcasm, ktsnake, was not necessary, nor does it help your argument (or your unusual sense of logic).

Just becuase you're tired of hearing black people complain about racism in America and the world, it does not mean that they are wrong or that there isnt a problem.

Actually I was serious.. This has been discussed to a huge extent. Here's the link:

"Prejudism" thread

I wasn't using it to reinforce my argument just to maintain the current discussion. That other discussion might be more at home in this other thread.

If I sounded sarcastic in any way it was not intended.

As I recall what happened in the "prejudism" thread we had a very long debate over semantics and the word racism in particular.

And I'll take your sarcastic comment about my sarcasm and warped sense of logic in stride it didn't help your argument nor was it necessary either

Now we're even I guess