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12-23-2001, 12:33 PM
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I agree with valkyrie 1000%. Our generation grew up when Roe was safe and sound, before the days of illegal abortions and the "Monday lines" of botched abortions outside of emergency rooms and all that came with it being outlawed, we were raised in a time when a woman's right to choose was a given, sometimes protested but never under serious threat - so many assume it will always be that way, just because it always was during our lives. People tell me I'm being paranoid or worrying about something that won't happen, but I can't be complacent when it comes to my rights, my civil rights, my right to control my own body and life and my right to medical privacy. Remember history, lest we repeat it.
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12-23-2001, 08:51 PM
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my father often said...
I grew up in a staunch Republican household. Dad's been a fiscally conservative member of the NRA since 1955, and votes a straight Republican ticket. However, he and I are pro-choice for the same reason:
Thomas Jefferson once said "The government that governs best is the government that governs LEAST." I don't believe in the government telling me about a choice I can't or shouldn't have. I also wonder: If they start with outlawing abortion, where will they stop? Will developmentally disabled people be sterilized? What else won't I be able to do with my own body. I realize that's kind of an extreme example, but you get what I mean.
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12-24-2001, 10:08 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
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Wow! I just read through all the posts. Great points on both sides. I also have to say, I learned some interesting facts. I never knew doctors could flush the uterus in the first 24-48 hours to prevent pregnancy.
I am pro-choice. I support the right of every woman to choose. When I was faced with an unplanned pregnancy, I chose to have my baby. Not because I thought abortion was murder or wrong or anything like that, but because I simply wanted my baby. I knew it was going to be hard, but I had the support of my honey who said he would support me either way and he did. I was scared of going home after graduating from college and having to tell my grandmother (she raised me) that instead of going to grad school as I planned, I was pregnant and moving to the Virgin Islands. But I did it. She didn't take it very well and didn't speak to me for MONTHS. But she got over it as most parents do.
What really bothers me is when a woman doesn't have an abortion because of all the reasons stated in some of the posts, but then she shoot drugs during the preganancy, neglects, abuses, and perhaps even murders her child later on because she just wasn't ready or was incapable of caring for the child. I know not all abuses occur because of this reason. However, deciding to have a baby is the EASY part believe it or not. Pregnancy, childbirth and the next 18 years (whether you raise the child or not) is the HARD part.
I'm not saying abortion is the answer to these scenarios. I'm not an idiot. However, I think it is wrong to bring a child into the world to be raised by unfit parents. But people do it EVERY DAY and others sit by and watch and don't say a word. Where are the rallies then?
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1987
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12-24-2001, 01:59 PM
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Playing the Devils Lil Advocate.....
OK, so we all agree that the government does not have the right to tell us what we can and cannot do to a certain extent, correct? OK this was brought up on Politically Incorrect one night with the whole abortion stance and think there is a valid point to it when you look deep into it. Im not saying its right or wrong, but think about it......
If we dont want the government saying what we can do with our bodies and etc, why is that we want the govern to step in and tell a man pay child support? Just like its our body, its his money. He's was basically trying to say that a man should have a equal say in what happens to the child, if the govern. is gonna tell him he has to pay for it. In a weird way I can see his point.
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12-24-2001, 02:27 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2001
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But the thing is, biology makes it "unfair" - the woman will always have more say over what happens to a pregnancy simply because she's the one who is pregnant, she's the one doing the work of pregnancy and childbirth and probably most of the childrearing if she continues the pregnancy, so to give the man an equal say in that when all he did was ejaculate and she's the one going through nine months and birth and blah blah blah...the woman has to have more of a say simply because of nature.
Last edited by DukeBlue; 12-24-2001 at 02:30 PM.
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12-24-2001, 03:20 PM
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no offense, but truthfully, I think thats kind of an unfair statement. To me it made it sound as if the man doesnt do anything at all except do his thing anf than go watch football for the next nine months and maybe speak to the woman for a min., when she says, hey im going into labor. It probably didnt mean to come of that way, but there are alot of man out there who do ALOT of work with helping their wives through a pregnancy. Yes, a woman does go through the 9 month term and does all the work during labor. but a woman wouldnt be in the position of getting pregnant in the first place if it wasnt for that sperm. I guess ofr the equal say thing, wouldnt you want it to be equal if it were the other way around if man had babies and women didnt? Also if we wanted to talk bio, majority of a childs traits/characteristics and etc come from the father. Alright im gonna stop, before I get on one my feminist wanting to be equal yet, things.
By the way Damasa, im zipping my lip just for you
Last edited by UMgirl; 12-26-2001 at 01:59 PM.
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12-24-2001, 05:09 PM
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WTF? A child gets the same number of chromosomes from each parent.
And no, I didn't mean it to come out the way you said, and yes if it was the other way around I'd WANT it to be equal but you know what? That's pretty much impossible because of the biology. As much as a man may help out, he's not going to have to have the health risks of pregnancy and birth and whatnot. The decisionmaking as to what will happen to a pregnancy will always be at least 51%-49% in the woman's favor because of simple biology. Like it or not, you can't change that fact.
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12-24-2001, 05:20 PM
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Okay, I'm going to try to avoid this thread entirely from now on...this is the one issue that can make me see red like no other. It's what I'm most passionate about and honestly if I were to devote my life to a cause it would be the pro-choice one. So. To save myself further stress and lashing out and people and saying things I don't mean, I'm leaving. No one's mind will be changed, anyway.
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12-24-2001, 05:58 PM
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ok, um...i am a little disheartened that no one here is pro-life...i understand the fact you don't want the government telling you what to do b/c i don't want anyone telling me what to do, either...but at the same time, i feel the government does have a responsibility to protect us...and why doesn't that include the innocent (!) lives of the unborn. i don't understand why people are always so ready to get rid of a part of themselves...if you were mature enough to do the deed, you are mature enough to carry the seed.
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12-24-2001, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
if you were mature enough to do the deed, you are mature enough to carry the seed.
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again as said many times above, this would be ideal but I know many people that did the deed and are in noway responsible-that is reality. Do you really want them raising a child? I woudn't.
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12-25-2001, 02:38 PM
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Please do not tell me that you think abortion is the only option for people who do not wish to keep their child...there are millions of people out there who WANT children and are unable to have them. These "irresponsible" individuals can put their child up for adoption, and in a lot of cases can even have their medical bills paid for if need be. All I'm saying is that the very least a pregnant couple can do if they do not want to keep it is to carry it to term, grant it life, and give it to someone who wants to raise it.
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12-25-2001, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
Please do not tell me that you think abortion is the only option for people who do not wish to keep their child...there are millions of people out there who WANT children and are unable to have them. These "irresponsible" individuals can put their child up for adoption, and in a lot of cases can even have their medical bills paid for if need be. All I'm saying is that the very least a pregnant couple can do if they do not want to keep it is to carry it to term, grant it life, and give it to someone who wants to raise it.
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You raise a valid point, but a friend of mine is a social worker who told me that *most* couples who are trying to adopt a child are very specific that they want an infant who is the same race they are and whose mother sought pre-natal care and leads a healthy, drug-free lifestyle. It is THOSE babies that people are jumping through hoops to adopt (not always of course, but this seems to be the norm). What about the children who don't fit this criteria? I am NOT saying that because these children are not easily adoptable that they are expendable or that they should be aborted (I do not personally endorse abortion), but I am just tired of hearing this same adoption argument over and over because there ARE plenty of babies and children out there who need good homes. They're just not the "chosen ones".
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12-25-2001, 03:41 PM
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Right...and there ARE people out there wanting to give them those good homes. If no one adopts the crack addicted baby, does that mean the child was better off being aborted? What does "chosen ones" mean, anyway? I know a man who was never adopted, raised in an orphanage and he has lead a good, solid life...you can't rate someone's quality of life until they are given the opportunity to live. In other words, you can't say that just because someone was born into bad circumstances, that their whole life, things will be bad for them.
All I'm saying is...no one has the right to take the innocent life of another...not even its mother.
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12-25-2001, 08:26 PM
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Right...and there ARE people out there wanting to give them those good homes.
Yes, I am aware of this. There is a couple in my church who adopted a now 4 year-old crack addicted baby and I have the utmost respect for them. This is not the norm, though.
If no one adopts the crack addicted baby, does that mean the child was better off being aborted?
No, I mentioned earlier that I am pro-life
What does "chosen ones" mean, anyway?
In the context of my last post, "chosen ones" refers to the babies that are not the ones people are flocking to adopt. See my previous post for criteria.
I know a man who was never adopted, raised in an orphanage and he has lead a good, solid life...you can't rate someone's quality of life until they are given the opportunity to live. In other words, you can't say that just because someone was born into bad circumstances, that their whole life, things will be bad for them.
This is true, but I never said otherwise. I was clarifying your statement that millions of people out there want to adopt children. That makes it sound like every, single child who is born will immediately be swooped up by a loving family and, sadly, that is not the case.
All I'm saying is...no one has the right to take the innocent life of another...not even its mother.
I agree with you on that point. But that is not all you're saying. You implied that every child that is conceived will end up being adopted if he/she is put up for placement. I wanted to set the record straight on that. I sincerely wish that were the case, but it isn't.
AlphaGamDiva, if you were counseling a pregnant, drug addicted woman, could you in good conscience tell her that if she has the child "millions of people" will be standing in line to adopt it? I know I couldn't. If you believe that women shouldn't have abortions, that's fine. But please don't base that argument on the premise that "millions of people" want to adopt. It is misleading.
__________________
I ♥ Delta Zeta ~ Proud Mom of an Omega Phi Alpha and a Phi Mu
"I just don't want people to go around thinking I'm the kind of person who doesn't believe in God or voted for Kerry." - Honeychile
Hail to Pitt!
Last edited by KillarneyRose; 12-25-2001 at 11:40 PM.
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12-25-2001, 11:16 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
I know a man who was never adopted, raised in an orphanage and he has lead a good, solid life...you can't rate someone's quality of life until they are given the opportunity to live. In other words, you can't say that just because someone was born into bad circumstances, that their whole life, things will be bad for them.
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For every one of those stories, there are hundreds that go the other way.
Have you ever experienced state run childcare? our foster care system in and of itself is atrocious... the system in Washington DC, our nation's CAPITOL, for crying out loud, is so dysfunctional that over a hundred children have died as a result of the failure of DC Social Services to properly keep uip on their cases. (I am 90% sure of this, but visit www.washingtonpost.com and do a search and it will bring up all the recent articles. There's one just about every week). Is it "morally responsible" to bring these children into the world, subject them to lives of abuse and poverty, only to have them be let down the the system that fought for their existence in the first place? What bright spots have these poor children had in their short lives?
DukeBlue- I am so grateful to you for articulating my thoughts on this issue exactly. You are a credit to my gender
All through our lives we are instructed on the message of self control: Just because you CAN, doesn't mean you SHOULD. This can be applied to all sides of the coin- to premarital sex as well as abortion and having a child.
One one hand, we can say that if you take the responsibility of sex, you accept all consequences that may go along with it. We all know that a good percentage of people engaging in intercourse- especially young people- are not well informed about the consequences that sex carries. I come from a mostly white upper class hometown, and I cannot count the number of people who had misinformation about sex. Sexual activity is a flood that will not easliy be dammed. When we ignore it, and preach abstinence instead of education (providing condoms and an open environment in which to facilitate conversationa nd question and answer), it's like saying "it will not get dark tonight." People are going to have premarital sex. Teenagers are going to get pregnant. And they will get abortions. Which is better- providing them with a safe, sanitary environment in which to have it sone, or leaving them to their own devices? Coat hangers? Back-alley butchers? How is that socially responsible?
Likewise, I believe that just because a woman is physically capable of having a child doesn't mean that she should. I like the analogy of donating one's body. If we are truly to argue that men and women should be equal in this respect, then what happens to the myriad of men who walk away from this responsibility? And let's be honest here... of the men that I've slept with, there are definitely some I would absolutely not consider as fathers of my children. To retain them as parents, to maintain that ever-constant connection through a child--- why? Am I to choose my sexual partners on the basis of "If I were to get pregnant, would he be a good father?" I don't understand that. My sexual life WILL NOT be dictated by the fact that I have a uterus and there is the possibility I could get pregnant. I am a separate person from my future children. They don't run my life (yet)  ).
Finally, I am pro-choice, but that does not mean pro-abortion. I am not sure that I could go through with having an abortion should I ever face that decision. Being pro-choice does not mean that you are in favor of across-the-board abortions. Just because you favor the choice doesn't mean you favor the act. You favor just that- the choice. Making abortions legal doesn't mean the YOU have to get one. It doesn't make a pro-life opinion null and void. You may still have your opinion and exercise it over your decisions. Pro-choice just means that other people have the right to exercise their own.
:: steps off soapbox::
::looks around at all the other soapboxes... there are lots::
phew. sorry. just had to get that off my chest.
wait, one more thing-
there have been several comments about women being raped and where abortion stands relevant to that. There was one comment saying something to the effect of "if a woman isn't responsible to get a medical exam, then she should have the baby." I literally have to clench my jaw about this. Rape is a horrifyingly traumatic thing. And it is not always a dark-alley, empty parking lot, stranger-in-a-hooded mask event. Most rapes occur at the hands of someone the victim knows. If there was an ambiguous night where there was too much alcohol (and I know we've ALL been there) and your friend crossed the line, are you so quick to cry rape and rush to the hospital? What if a woman was drugged and doesn't remember the event until days later(raises hand here)? Is it still her "irresponsibility" at fault? Or what about incest? When a girl is raped by her father/uncle/brother and is too intimidated to report it, is that irresponsible? THERE ARE TOO MANY VARIABLES WITH RAPE TO CATEGORIZE IT. It is NEVER the vicitms fault. Don't begin to assume that you understand the emotional rollercoaster that follows such an act, and have the right to dictate a time frame for a woman to take appropriate action.
:::really steps off soapbox:::
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