University of Alabama Breaks Color Barrier...

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
Lovely

Wow, you've finally caught on. I've not presented her with anything so conclusive to try to change her mind. You are Brilliant! But what I have done is used a little socratic tactics to try to get her to either rethink the way she states her opinion, or hopefully, reconsider the way she feels and either reaffirm it, or make a new conclusion. My only real post here is the one where I asked a few questions. The other was in response to something that she (I assume) deleted that seemed rude, and coming back awfully harsh IMO at DZRose, implying stupidity. I don't try to convince anyone of anything, I ask questions, that's all. So, you're 9,000% correct in one regard, and 0% in another regard, I've presented zero facts to prove shit, respectively, I've presented zero opinions to prove or disprove anything, or back up anything. I've got opinions, but I've kept them to myself.

Brilliant
Brilliant



Cory

There goes that good ole sarcasm...nice attempt. You don't know WHAT my post (that I deleted) said. So, why even COMMENT on it?? Sometimes, you don't have to say anything...especially when you DON'T know. If I delete something, it's not necessarily because it was RUDE, but it is either because I accidentally deleted it (haha), OR it would just add confusion to an already confused population (you'll have fun with that one, SigmaChi).
You can always ASSUME what I am trying to say (or imply). But, until you KNOW, you're just running around in circles. When I'm being flat out rude or disrespectful...you'll know...but I would NOT do that on a public board. So, your perception of my comments is just that, YOUR perception...that and a quarter could get you a phonecall

[SH80er]

Originally posted by lovelyivy84



Sh80:

No, you are wrong. A number of the worst offenders were deleted by the moderators.

Still, what does that have to do with this thread?

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by SoTrue1920
Is a non-black person who joins an NPHC organization a "sell-out"?

I'm not being facetious.

See, I've been called a sell-out my entire life. I dared to have friends of all races in high school. When some of those friends and I ended up at the same college, I went through NPC rush as a freshman, thinking it would be cool to be in the same org. as one of my closest friends (who later became a member of Zeta Tau Alpha). Of course, that was not to be, because at the time, none of the NPC sororities at my alma mater had accepted any African American members.

I like rock music better than hip-hop, always have, and probably always will. When I went to college, I decided to become involved with the student-run radio station. I'd listened to it growing up, so it was a dream job for me. When I rose up through the ranks into station management, the African American students who worked at other student organizations called me "sell out" and "oreo cookie" simply because I dared to do something that they hadn't tried or hadn't been able to do in their own attempts. When I became the general manager of the station, these same fools who called me "sell out" and "oreo cookie" came to me looking for jobs. If I'd given my detractors position at the station, would that have made me less of a sell-out? What about the fact that when I was in a position to hire volunteers, I hired more non-white students than anyone had in the history of that radio station?

When members of Pi Kappa Alpha scrawled "n*ggers enter" on a garbage can and put it outside the Kappa Sigma suite to protest Kappa Sig's acceptance of a black pledge, does the fact that I helped organize a student protest against the PiKes make me less of a sell-out? What about the end result of the demonstration -- the university was shut down for three days, and gained an African American Studies department (one of our many demands)? Am I more black now?

I think that term "sell-out" is quite possibly a defensive mechanism used by some folks to explain why it's easier for some African Americans to move through racially mixed circles than it is for themselves. Even if that's not true in your case, ChaosDST, I can't understand why in this day and age we are so hung up on there being one true, authentic way to express Blackness in our society. There are as many different ways to be black as there are Black folks on the planet. No one's cornered the market on it, and essentialist actions like calling someone a "sell-out" only helps to perpetuate the continued intra-racial distrust, misunderstanding, and dysfunction in our communities.

Just my $19.20.

Sisterfriend,

The kinds of friends you have and the kinds of music you listen to, does not make you more or less culturally aware. Our Blackness is not that one dimensional. I think it's apparent that you didn't read all of my posts. Because I clearly stated (although I don't use the term sell-out, I used it ONLY after someone else did) that we are to be true to OURSELVES and our culture (whatever that may mean to each INDIVIDUAL) BEFORE we seek to extend ourselves to others. This goes for ANYONE...not just Blacks. In terms of membership in our organizations, we cannot offer the organizations anything if we are not aware of ourselves.
Lastly, I don't want to discuss non-minorities in the NPHC. That's a whole new discussion which I CHOOSE not to discuss on GC for various reasons.
I see your $19.20 on this matter, but none of these comments (in the context of this discussion) TRULY pertain to you...since you are in the NPHC (for whatever reasons you chose).


My $19.13

[SigmaChiCard]

either rethink the way she states her opinion, or hopefully, reconsider the way she feels and either reaffirm it, or make a new conclusion

Which is what I said. you must not read very well! And the one in question from page 3? If you look at the question, her tone is to imply that most blacks that join non-BGLO's are selling out, do you hear that when you read it. Her saying that not ALL is like the way of saying that there are a few exceptions, but those are exceptions and not the general norm. Now, such being the case, she said that she sees no reason for that blacks should join historically white GLO's, but that is just her opinion, and many people actually do mingle better with white people, though she doesn't. That's perfectly fine, but for her to imply that because they are more comfortable around white people, that it resultingly means that they are 'selling out' is ludacris, and so my questions, which I implore you to reread, my lovely, simply asked if she didn't join her sorority because she felt comfortable there, and the general undertones were that everyone should join where they feel comfortable, and the pressures that DZrose spoke of, were epitomized in her reaction, that these black girls/guys are 'selling out' for joining something with a tradition of being white, that they are, actually working for the world that many people simply speak of.

So, my lovely, if it's your opinion that I do not read well, that is wonderful, or if perhaps you feel I'm overanalytical, that too is fine. However, dear, make sure you read well. I enjoy when someone is firm in what they believe, it's the basis of my fraternity, while still being open to accepting new ideas and philosophies. I've learned much discussing with you, Ideal and DST in our verbal wrestling matches, there is much I can take away from the talks that we've had. All I have done is ask questions to make her reconsider her thought process, and unfortunately she refused to do so openly, but silently, deep down, has definitely reconsidered, and I think she realizes that she didn't mean that exactly as she implied it. I know you are intending by now to come at me on the one exposed opening I've given you, that much of this is my interpretation, and perhaps my question should have been 'give me clarity' but instead, I was a little more precise, and asked direct questions. Is there fault in that? Give me Clarity is such a vague question

But hey, give me clarity.

Cory

[lovelyivy84]

I have already said I'm not getting involved in this topic. I won't discuss race or racial issues with you guys anymore because it's pointless.

Anyone who has a question can of course PM me.

SH80: My comment on you was in reference to a statement Chaos had made in reference to what she though of you. Myabe I should have PM'd her. Oh well.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
Which is what I said. you must not read very well! And the one in question from page 3? If you look at the question, her tone is to imply that most blacks that join non-BGLO's are selling out, do you hear that when you read it. Her saying that not ALL is like the way of saying that there are a few exceptions, but those are exceptions and not the general norm. Now, such being the case, she said that she sees no reason for that blacks should join historically white GLO's, but that is just her opinion, and many people actually do mingle better with white people, though she doesn't. That's perfectly fine, but for her to imply that because they are more comfortable around white people, that it resultingly means that they are 'selling out' is ludacris, and so my questions, which I implore you to reread, my lovely, simply asked if she didn't join her sorority because she felt comfortable there, and the general undertones were that everyone should join where they feel comfortable, and the pressures that DZrose spoke of, were epitomized in her reaction, that these black girls/guys are 'selling out' for joining something with a tradition of being white, that they are, actually working for the world that many people simply speak of.

So, my lovely, if it's your opinion that I do not read well, that is wonderful, or if perhaps you feel I'm overanalytical, that too is fine. However, dear, make sure you read well. I enjoy when someone is firm in what they believe, it's the basis of my fraternity, while still being open to accepting new ideas and philosophies. I've learned much discussing with you, Ideal and DST in our verbal wrestling matches, there is much I can take away from the talks that we've had. All I have done is ask questions to make her reconsider her thought process, and unfortunately she refused to do so openly, but silently, deep down, has definitely reconsidered, and I think she realizes that she didn't mean that exactly as she implied it. I know you are intending by now to come at me on the one exposed opening I've given you, that much of this is my interpretation, and perhaps my question should have been 'give me clarity' but instead, I was a little more precise, and asked direct questions. Is there fault in that? Give me Clarity is such a vague question

But hey, give me clarity.

Cory

Please do not refer to me, without speaking directly to me. I'm a grown woman who would appreciate that direct "verbal" contact.
Now, I'm not the first person to use the term "sell-out," I used it in response to someone else's use. We are speaking of blacks in GLOs as if it is some sort of epidemic. Regardless, I refrain from making generalizations. In an attempt to NOT make a generalization...I phrased my sentences carefully. You can't please everyone...perhaps I should have used percentages and actual numbers of whom I felt would fit my statement and those that would not. Too bad, because I don't have those percentages or numbers in my back pocket, which is why my comment came out as it did. There goes Cory, fighting someone else's battle again, though. We could debate about that ONE post alllllllll day, and your perception of my overrall tone...but that wouldn't get us anywhere.

[SH80er]

Someone has a chip on their shoulder.
*Looking at ChaosDST*

[SigmaChiCard]

my fault on using her rather than DST, no direct intention on that, or anything of that sort, it was just conversational between Lovely & I. My fighting others battles? As a proud US citizen, I like to go into other countries and fight wars when there is no reason to, just like my great country, and not referring to now, now there is a reason (sorry for the digression, hope you at least found it funny). Umm, I don't know, I figured you'd go after my using my perception of things, but seriously, was "NOT IN ALL" not meant to show that most are, but there are some exceptions? I mean, it just really seemed that way to me. But what's more important is this.

In a community where there has never been racial integration, there now is

PROGRESS, yay!

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by ChaosDST



I understand your confusion. Question, why does someone HAVE to join a sorority or a fraternity? Aren't we supposed to be COMPLETE individuals BEFORE we join these organizations. We have nothing to offer these organizations if we are not aware of ourselves. So, in that regard, I would say those who do not know themselves, should seek that knowledge BEFORE membership in ANY fraternity or sorority. This goes for Black people in a BGLO, this goes for non-minorities in GLOs, and it goes for Blacks and other minorities in GLOs.

Okay, Chaos, I understand what you're trying to say now. To answer your first question, nobody HAS to join a Greek org. It's all a matter of individual preference. However, for those people who DO choose Greek Life, let me ask you this, just as a point to consider: Should I have gone back and studied my Irish and Dutch roots -- my Western European "culture" -- before I joined Delta Zeta? Would my taking European history classes and hanging out with Irish and Dutch Americans before I went through Rush have made me a more "complete" individual (i.e. more "aware" of myself) and put me in a position to offer more to my Delta Zeta sisters?

In regard to the last point you made about the belief that people should know themselves before they join a Greek organization... The way that I look at things, I think that most college kids who join Greek orgs (no matter what type of GLO they choose) do not completely know themselves when they first join. Why? Because they're still, in fact, kids. They may have valid opinions and staunch beliefs in certain things, but they are still, for the most part, innocent to the ways of the world and have quite a way to go before they mature enough to be a true benefit to society. College is all about gaining experience through both book learning and outside experimentation. It's the first time that many kids are on their own and able to make decisions about their lives.

I feel that it's DURING college, not BEFORE, that college students get to know themselves better and have the opportunity to decide what direction they want to take in their lives. (Notice that I didn't say "know themselves COMPLETELY" in that last sentence. I firmly believe that we never know ourselves completely because we are constantly changing with every new life experience.)

As to where GLO's enter this college picture: Greek organization can help a kid to grow, not as a black person or a white person, but simply as a person. Greek members learn leadership skills; they learn how to work with their brothers/sisters to accomplish goals; they learn social skills by interacting with other groups. That's why I don't think that it matters what type of GLO a person joins, as long as the chapter that he/she belongs to is strong and dedicated to helping its members to prepare for the "real world". That's what being in a GLO -- any GLO -- is all about.

Chaos, do you see the points I'm trying to make? We're having a great discussion, and I'd like to hear your take on this.

[SigmaChiCard]

I came to college knowing myself

came to college and confused myself

hopefully when i get out, i'll find myself again

[dzrose93]

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
I came to college knowing myself

came to college and confused myself

hopefully when i get out, i'll find myself again

Collegiate GCer's:

Didn't mean to offend anyone who's in college right now by my earlier post.

SigmaChiCard:

You proved my point with that last post... You said that you came to college knowing yourself and now find yourself confused. That's just it... You've probably had so many different experiences since you've been at college that some of your views have changed and your plans for the future aren't quite the same as they used to be. Am I right? That's what college is all about!

I know that none of y'all on GC know me personally, but I can tell you that my friends who knew me before, during, and after college are amazed at how much I've changed in a few short years. My views, my perceptions, my personality -- everything was reshaped as I matured during school. And I can see the same changes that occured in my friends during that time as well.

[SoTrue1920]

Originally posted by ChaosDST

Because I clearly stated (although I don't use the term sell-out, I used it ONLY after someone else did) that we are to be true to OURSELVES and our culture (whatever that may mean to each INDIVIDUAL) BEFORE we seek to extend ourselves to others. This goes for ANYONE...not just Blacks. In terms of membership in our organizations, we cannot offer the organizations anything if we are not aware of ourselves.
Lastly, I don't want to discuss non-minorities in the NPHC. That's a whole new discussion which I CHOOSE not to discuss on GC for various reasons.
I see your $19.20 on this matter, but none of these comments (in the context of this discussion) TRULY pertain to you...since you are in the NPHC (for whatever reasons you chose).

Alright, I'm really trying to understand this -- I'm not being sarcastic, nor am I trying to stir up controversy where there is none....

Who ultimately decides when a person has been "true" to himself or herself? Is there a certain... quota (for lack of a better word) that one has to fill before it is decided that a person is being "true"? Isn't it possible that there are myriad versions of the truth? Is there a standard level of awareness? Is that level based on an American standard? I'm an American living in Canada, and I've learned that Canadian "Blackness" is a bit different from American "Blackness". Which is more authentic?

If I hadn't joined an NPHC organization, would my opinions be more suspect? The letters I wear across my chest and the Zeta light in my heart (or the Delta light in yours) isn't a fair representation of who a person is. For all you know, I could be singlehandedly trying to overturn all affirmative action legislation and any social programs set aside to serve minority communities -- I'm not, but my Greek affiliation is not and should not be used to judge my level of committment to Black communities.

And yes, ChaosDST - I have read all of your posts in this thread. I only chose to comment on something that stuck out at me.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by SigmaChiCard
my fault on using her rather than DST, no direct intention on that, or anything of that sort, it was just conversational between Lovely & I. My fighting others battles? As a proud US citizen, I like to go into other countries and fight wars when there is no reason to, just like my great country, and not referring to now, now there is a reason (sorry for the digression, hope you at least found it funny). Umm, I don't know, I figured you'd go after my using my perception of things, but seriously, was "NOT IN ALL" not meant to show that most are, but there are some exceptions? I mean, it just really seemed that way to me. But what's more important is this.

In a community where there has never been racial integration, there now is

PROGRESS, yay!

LOL. You are TOO much.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by dzrose93


Okay, Chaos, I understand what you're trying to say now. To answer your first question, nobody HAS to join a Greek org. It's all a matter of individual preference. However, for those people who DO choose Greek Life, let me ask you this, just as a point to consider: Should I have gone back and studied my Irish and Dutch roots -- my Western European "culture" -- before I joined Delta Zeta? Would my taking European history classes and hanging out with Irish and Dutch Americans before I went through Rush have made me a more "complete" individual (i.e. more "aware" of myself) and put me in a position to offer more to my Delta Zeta sisters?

In regard to the last point you made about the belief that people should know themselves before they join a Greek organization... The way that I look at things, I think that most college kids who join Greek orgs (no matter what type of GLO they choose) do not completely know themselves when they first join. Why? Because they're still, in fact, kids. They may have valid opinions and staunch beliefs in certain things, but they are still, for the most part, innocent to the ways of the world and have quite a way to go before they mature enough to be a true benefit to society. College is all about gaining experience through both book learning and outside experimentation. It's the first time that many kids are on their own and able to make decisions about their lives.

I feel that it's DURING college, not BEFORE, that college students get to know themselves better and have the opportunity to decide what direction they want to take in their lives. (Notice that I didn't say "know themselves COMPLETELY" in that last sentence. I firmly believe that we never know ourselves completely because we are constantly changing with every new life experience.)

As to where GLO's enter this college picture: Greek organization can help a kid to grow, not as a black person or a white person, but simply as a person. Greek members learn leadership skills; they learn how to work with their brothers/sisters to accomplish goals; they learn social skills by interacting with other groups. That's why I don't think that it matters what type of GLO a person joins, as long as the chapter that he/she belongs to is strong and dedicated to helping its members to prepare for the "real world". That's what being in a GLO -- any GLO -- is all about.

Chaos, do you see the points I'm trying to make? We're having a great discussion, and I'd like to hear your take on this.

Yes, I see your points. However, the women that are initiated into my organization must be women FIRST. We don't allow kids to enter. A kid is under the age of 18...we tend to only initiate women over the age of 18--typically 19 and over--because they usually have to be atleast sophomores in college (I was a junior and I was getting ready to turn 21 the summer after I was initiated). So, I would hope that these people would not be a kid, mentally or physically.
With that said, learning is a continual process...however, we don't want people who are going to let their letters completely MAKE them the person that they are. They need to be a complete person...our organizations are meant to compliment, not compensate.
Your researching up on your European roots is up to you...if that helps you understand yourself and your culture. But, we can't compare the cultural awareness of a Black person to that of a white person...two different fruits. And, that's a new topic.

[ChaosDST]

I will PM you with my response. I am beyond bored with this thread, now.

Originally posted by SoTrue1920


Alright, I'm really trying to understand this -- I'm not being sarcastic, nor am I trying to stir up controversy where there is none....

Who ultimately decides when a person has been "true" to himself or herself? Is there a certain... quota (for lack of a better word) that one has to fill before it is decided that a person is being "true"? Isn't it possible that there are myriad versions of the truth? Is there a standard level of awareness? Is that level based on an American standard? I'm an American living in Canada, and I've learned that Canadian "Blackness" is a bit different from American "Blackness". Which is more authentic?

If I hadn't joined an NPHC organization, would my opinions be more suspect? The letters I wear across my chest and the Zeta light in my heart (or the Delta light in yours) isn't a fair representation of who a person is. For all you know, I could be singlehandedly trying to overturn all affirmative action legislation and any social programs set aside to serve minority communities -- I'm not, but my Greek affiliation is not and should not be used to judge my level of committment to Black communities.

And yes, ChaosDST - I have read all of your posts in this thread. I only chose to comment on something that stuck out at me.