Why in the world should a lady be expected to join a house she didn't want to?

[SAEalumnus]

A few points...

1) The Greek Community at large is supposed to be based on a mutual freedom of association between chapter and member. I believe that if a specific chapter and a specific PNM both desire mutual association, then that should be the only requirement for a bid to be extended. Think of it as a free market version of recruitment rather than the (over-)regulated market version typical of sorority recruitment (i.e. house totals, etc).

2) Trying to force, coerce, pressure, or otherwise push someone into membership in an organization they don't want to join is reprehensible. The whole point of joining is that you are making a life-time commitment to your organization of choice and to its members (your brothers/sisters). How can anyone expect a person to make a commitment of this magnitude to a group they never wanted to join in the first place?

3) The entire purpose of the rush/recruitment/insert_random_policitcally_correct_phrase_here period is for the PNM and the chapters to get to know as many (if not all) of the available options as they can. By the time bids are extended, a PNM should already have investigated his/her options and already know if alternate groups are acceptable to them or not.

... that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

[shadokat]

Again, the NIC point of view rears its ugly head No offense SAE! I love the boys!! It's just we're never going to agree on recruitment and which way is right.

As for what GeekyPenguin said, I think she said it best. It doesn't hurt to try, and if you don't like it, you don't sign a bid card and try to COB. Good post GP

Originally posted by SAEalumnus
A few points...

1) The Greek Community at large is supposed to be based on a mutual freedom of association between chapter and member. I believe that if a specific chapter and a specific PNM both desire mutual association, then that should be the only requirement for a bid to be extended. Think of it as a free market version of recruitment rather than the (over-)regulated market version typical of sorority recruitment (i.e. house totals, etc).

2) Trying to force, coerce, pressure, or otherwise push someone into membership in an organization they don't want to join is reprehensible. The whole point of joining is that you are making a life-time commitment to your organization of choice and to its members (your brothers/sisters). How can anyone expect a person to make a commitment of this magnitude to a group they never wanted to join in the first place?

3) The entire purpose of the rush/recruitment/insert_random_policitcally_correct_phrase_here period is for the PNM and the chapters to get to know as many (if not all) of the available options as they can. By the time bids are extended, a PNM should already have investigated his/her options and already know if alternate groups are acceptable to them or not.

... that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

[GammaPhiBabe]

She should be able to do so without the hassle of people lecturing her about how she should keep an open mind about a group she truly dislikes.

The problem with this is that so many PNM's hear rumors and stories about different organizations that they may make up their minds that they "truly dislike" an organization without really knowing anything about it.
Without having been through a big formal recruitment yourself, I'm sure it it is hard for you to imagine what it would be like to be in a new place, knowing almost no one, and having to rely on first impressions and "tent talk" to make an important decision. I don't think that anyone should be forced to stay in a chapter where she truly doesn't fit in... but the truth is that most PNMs don't actually know whether or not they'll fit in until long after rush is over.

I think that, at many schools, the majority of soroity chapters are, in fact, very similar. They all have similar social events, similar houses, similar traditions. Sure, some of them are more sought-after and some of them have lower numbers. But I think that you get out of a sorority what you put into it, and if you are willing to be open-minded and give it a shot, even if you are disappointed, you will end up being satisfied with your experience. And, if not, there is always the possibility of going through rush or COB the following year with a more informed outlook.

[Measi]

Originally posted by 33girl
I have to say I don't like the thing of everybody opening their bids together in public...in my day the sororities came to everyone's door individually. And yes, maybe your face did fall when you saw it was ABC instead of XYZ but at least it was only in front of 3 sisters instead of all the rushees and sororities.

I would have been mortified if it was in public.

Mine was delivered to my door by three sisters, and it was fantastic.

~ Mel.

[XOMichelle]

Originally posted by James
A large part of the sorority system seems predicated on the idea that even if mutually selected, the numbers issue might make a PNM not get a bid for the house she wants.

Ok fair enough. But why do we expect and pressure them to join the house she doesn't want?

That seems to be an enormous flaw in the system.

Does anyone else agree? Or disagree?

I think part of the problem is that some girls refuse to join chatpers based on the idea that they aren't cool if they don't join a top house, and not for any other concrete reasons. I come from a local chapter that has a lot of girls come in saying they don't want to join, and I had a great experience. It's a big slap in my face for a PNM to say "I'm too good to join your house".

[carnation]

I truly believe that one thing that causes Southern girls to end up in a chapter they don't want is the fear of hurting someone's feelings. As a Greek advisor, I came up behind several Rho Chis who were trying to pressure girls into returning to parties where they didn't want to be by playing on this. ("Oh c'mon, Amanda, if you don't go back to XYZ, Lori from your hometown will be really, really hurt.")

And before you knew it, the PNM was gently jollied into pledging a group she definitely didn't want, the Greek Office would have a hysterical girl on their hands, and a depledge usually resulted.

[Measi]

Originally posted by XOMichelle
I think part of the problem is that some girls refuse to join chatpers based on the idea that they aren't cool if they don't join a top house, and not for any other concrete reasons. I come from a local chapter that has a lot of girls come in saying they don't want to join, and I had a great experience. It's a big slap in my face for a PNM to say "I'm too good to join your house".

It is a slap, but at the same time be thankful that that girl *isn't* a member of your house with that attitude! One person who thinks they're "above" the rest of their sisterhood can tear a chapter apart.

~ Mel.

[James]

HotdamnIamaphimu, I guess thats fair, assuming I am nit picking just to nit pick.

And I do have a fair understanding of the process of formal rush.

However, these kinds of topics, and the more intellegent responses in them, give me a better idea of the concepts behind formal rush, what the abstract goals are, the application, the variation among campuses, as well as how effective the results.

So what we do is examine the results in the context of the goals of formal rush and then look at how the process of rush supports that.

Navane's response was among the most helpful because thats the way I meant the question. Plus, her taking the tact of examining girl-culture and some of the thought processes going on was insightful.

Originally posted by HotDamnImAPhiMu
I'm not a huge fan of James' starting these threads questioning the operations of the NPC.

Seems to me like it's perfectly rational to be like, "Hey, I don't get why girls have to list x number of groups on their cards, even if they would only consider one of those groups." To ask honest questions and want honest answers.

That's not really what this is though. James certainly understands the concepts behind formal rush -- probably more so than any other male on here -- so why stir stuff up just to stir stuff up?

Our rush system isn't perfect, but right now, it's the best that we have to work with. James has basically pointed out a problem that isn't a problem -- as you ladies demonstrated -- so..... what's the point?

[James]

So, to sum up the viewpoints given:

Women are not forced to list houses that they don't want to join.

However, some believe that there is peer pressure not to suicide and maybe list groups that are less desired in order give those houses a chance. Which is also consistent with the philosophy of Formal Rush, trying to create population parity among the houses.

It seems to be the opinion of the majority, that all else being equal, any reasonably stable girl should be able to have a good experience in even the less popuar houses. That assumes that house doesn't have any extraordinary problems.

There is also a strong viewpoint that the houses and the rho chi's might know better where someone should be placed than the actual PNM. In this case, its important that the PNM be "guided" to put down multiple houses, and "encouraged" to accept a bid they might not be dying for, to give that house a chance. Because after all, they can quit and rush again.

A vocal minority believes that the average PNM is perfectly capable of making an informed choice. Therefore pressure is not a good or maybe even an ethical thing.

I think that sums up most of the debate.

[James]

Ok, so based on the debate so far, I have another question.

Is there is a pool of desirable PNM's that don't end up placed because they would rather not be Greek than be Greek in an organization that they had made up their minds they didn't want to join?

I am thinking mostly about girls that either dropped out of rush when cut heavily in the first rounds, or didn't like the chapters they were given to Preference and then dropped.

Those girls would be lost to the system forever because they didn't want what they didn't want. And the less desirable chapters didn't get them either, so thats where the system breaks down for them also.

[HotDamnImAPhiMu]

how does that question promote more, different debate?

we've established that, yes, there are women who ONLY want one chapter, either because they believe rightly they wouldn't fit in with any other chapter, or because they're too spoiled to look beyond first appearances,

and that the only way to change this is to promote the concept of PNMs looking past first appearances, and the concept of "giving houses a chance,"

and that some panhellenic members believe this is unethical and a bad idea, because it is likely to put a PNM somewhere she won't be happy and won't fit in, and every PNM is capable of making her own informed decision (for you Kelly )

and some panhellenic members believe this is a reasonable way of encouraging PNMs to take a look at houses they are a great match for.

[shadokat]

Most girls who get cut heavily and decide to drop up here in the north will rarely bother to even go Greek.

Originally posted by James
Ok, so based on the debate so far, I have another question.

Is there is a pool of desirable PNM's that don't end up placed because they would rather not be Greek than be Greek in an organization that they had made up their minds they didn't want to join?

I am thinking mostly about girls that either dropped out of rush when cut heavily in the first rounds, or didn't like the chapters they were given to Preference and then dropped.

Those girls would be lost to the system forever because they didn't want what they didn't want. And the less desirable chapters didn't get them either, so thats where the system breaks down for them also.

[33girl]

As far as telling women not to suicide, sometimes that's the way the computer program is written - if they put only one group down, it kicks them out of the system. I have no experience with these, but I would think that if they really only want one group, they could put down 2 others that they don't have a snowball's chance of getting bid to (i.e. that cut them after the first round).

I would never, ever, EVER want a woman to put a house on her bid card that she didn't like after a week of rush. "Giving it a chance" applies to going to a party, not signing a bid. But sometimes rho chis get too overzealous - it's a human flaw and they are human, not perfect.

If a woman was closed-minded enough that she'd drop out of rush when her options didn't turn out to be what her ego thought they would - i.e. the "popular" houses - that doesn't make her "desirable" in my eyes. Those are the women the system needs to weed out.

[texas*princess]

Ok, so based on the debate so far, I have another question.

Is there is a pool of desirable PNM's that don't end up placed because they would rather not be Greek than be Greek in an organization that they had made up their minds they didn't want to join?

Yes, sometimes at some schools there are. This is probably a stretch, but at smaller, less competitive schools, I think the chances of someone dropping out of rush are probably less than those of Sally PNM who is going thru rush with a huge and/or competitive greek system.


Those girls would be lost to the system forever because they didn't want what they didn't want. And the less desirable chapters didn't get them either, so thats where the system breaks down for them also.

Yes, sometimes it doesn't work out for the pnm's who decide they would rather drop than join the houses they didn't get cut from, and yes the chapters might have missed out on some members, but would those "less desirable" chapters want those pnms who thought they were too good for their house? I would hope not. Thankfully NPC allows chapters to COB/COR after formal recruitment is over for chapters who did not meet quota or have not reached total. During that time, those chapters can find members who want to be there.

I think you're forgetting that it isn't always about formal recruitment.

I also think this is just another way of putting your original question.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

James, I think your question here depends on your definition of "desireable". My undergrad chapter did not always make quota during FR when I was there (we were one of those chapters that was much stronger in COB). Anyway, every year we got one or two of those girls that were "desireable"...gorgeous, popular, dating an XYZ, whatever...the kind who were invited back to every chapter, and picked ours.

Nine times out of ten, these girls ended up being the worst members over time.