Advice for PNMs: Not getting a bid to your 1st choice.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

You're saying that she would indeed match to DEF, right? I had a situation in my head where that wasn't the case, but it would be the very rare exception, I think.

Does computer matching use the exact same logic as hand matching? Or is it optimizing the number of matches overall?

IF she was on the first bid list, she WOULD match to DEF. IF she was on the second bid list, she would only match if she was high enough on the list to match BEFORE they hit quota. It doesn't matter if she puts them second on her list, if she can't match with her first choice, and she matches with DEF, she can kick off a PNM who put DEF #1 if that PNM is lower on DEFs list if it's for the last spot in their pledge class. The Bid List has to be taken into consideration. Cross cutting is a myth (or was a result of misunderstanding of the rules by people doing hand matching.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

IF she was on the first bid list, she WOULD match to DEF. IF she was on the second bid list, she would only match if she was high enough on the list to match BEFORE they hit quota. It doesn't matter if she puts them second on her list, if she can't match with her first choice, and she matches with DEF, she can kick off a PNM who put DEF #1 if that PNM is lower on DEFs list if it's for the last spot in their pledge class. The Bid List has to be taken into consideration. Cross cutting is a myth (or was a result of misunderstanding of the rules by people doing hand matching.)

Right, right. In my original post, I said that putting the wrong group first would hurt you, and now I'm thinking that was backwards, and that it would not (or if it would, only in the very rare exceptions where the matching gets "stuck" and they have to bend the rules).

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Right, right. In my original post, I said that putting the wrong group first would hurt you, and now I'm thinking that was backwards, and that it would not (or if it would, only in the very rare exceptions where the matching gets "stuck" and they have to bend the rules).

The whole confusion now comes when they start shifting quota to maximize placement. This may shift PNMs into different groups. If you're #25 on your #2 choice's list and they shift quota to 24, you suddenly end up in your #3 choice...or if they shift up to 26 for quota and you are #26 on your #1 choice's list, you immediately jump to that group. (Using simplistic numbers of course.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The whole confusion now comes when they start shifting quota to maximize placement. This may shift PNMs into different groups. If you're #25 on your #2 choices list and they shift quota to 24, you suddenly end up in your #3 choice...or if they shift up to 26 for quota and you are #26 on your #1 choice's list, you immediately jump to that group. (Using simplistic numbers of course.)

Thanks. I ask a lot of questions about bid matching, RFM, etc. because I do a lot of work in both forecasting and optimization. Bid matching is, effectively, a multiple objective problem, because you want to maximize PNM happiness across all PNM's and chapter happiness across all chapters. That means there has to be a trade-off somewhere, and the one chosen, for whatever historical reason, is that the chapters' preferences trump the PNMs' preferences.

So, in my prior example, I was incorrect. If quota is 10, and Polly PNM is 11, and Suzie PNM is 12 on the bid list, the spot will go to Polly over Suzie, even though this group is Suzie's first choice and Polly's 3rd. So Suzie gains nothing by listing this chapter as her #1, and Polly loses nothing by ranking them 3rd.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Thanks. I ask a lot of questions about bid matching, RFM, etc. because I do a lot of work in both forecasting and optimization. Bid matching is, effectively, a multiple objective problem, because you want to maximize PNM happiness across all PNM's and chapter happiness across all chapters. That means there has to be a trade-off somewhere, and the one chosen, for whatever historical reason, is that the chapters' preferences trump the PNMs' preferences.

So, in my prior example, I was incorrect. If quota is 10, and Polly PNM is 11, and Suzie PNM is 12 on the bid list, the spot will go to Polly over Suzie, even though this group is Suzie's first choice and Polly's 3rd. So Suzie gains nothing by listing this chapter as her #1, and Polly loses nothing by ranking them 3rd.

Exactly. In the end, the chapter gets the final say unless as long as their choices want them. The end result, if you asked the chapter, may not be so optimal. Would you really want Polly who put you 3rd over Suzie who put you #1? I probably wouldn't. But...that's how it works. Residency Match works essentially the same way, but no one questions the match, they just put in their picks and shows up on match day. If you don't match, you scramble for a leftover spot. That's sorta the equivalent of Snap bidding, I guess!

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Exactly. In the end, the chapter gets the final say unless as long as their choices want them. The end result, if you asked the chapter, may not be so optimal. Would you really want Polly who put you 3rd over Suzie who put you #1? I probably wouldn't. But...that's how it works. Residency Match works essentially the same way, but no one questions the match, they just put in their picks and shows up on match day. If you don't match, you scramble for a leftover spot. That's sorta the equivalent of Snap bidding, I guess!

I'll just keep the off-topic stuff going...I always thought it would be interesting if chapters could have "A-lists" and "B-lists" every round. If a chapter is, for example, supposed to have 100 women at the first invitational round, and they historically have a 50% return rate, they'd get to issue 200 invitations, and have, say, 10 on the "B-list". The computer would do the first round of scheduling as normal, and if the chapter had fewer than 90 women, any women on the B-list who didn't have full schedules would then be added.

It would be a way for chapters to take a second look at a PNM who hadn't been their first choice, much the same way we encourage PNM's to take a second look at a chapter they ranked lower.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I'll just keep the off-topic stuff going...I always thought it would be interesting if chapters could have "A-lists" and "B-lists" every round. If a chapter is, for example, supposed to have 100 women at the first invitational round, and they historically have a 50% return rate, they'd get to issue 200 invitations, and have, say, 10 on the "B-list". The computer would do the first round of scheduling as normal, and if the chapter had fewer than 90 women, any women on the B-list who didn't have full schedules would then be added.

It would be a way for chapters to take a second look at a PNM who hadn't been their first choice, much the same way we encourage PNM's to take a second look at a chapter they ranked lower.

They sorta do that with the Flex List. The only problem is that I've seen chapters look at these women as "cut." It's like the ranking that PNMs do. It's hard to get PNMs to look at chapters that they "cut" when they turn up on their list again. From first hand experience, these women can be treated as leftovers or rejects in ways that Snap bids or other ways of maximizing aren't because the whole chapter isn't involved in that process. There would need to be a big PR push or way of doing it that made it not seem like these were women who are released who can be brought back if the chapter doesn't hit their return number.

[AZ-AlphaXi]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I'll just keep the off-topic stuff going...I always thought it would be interesting if chapters could have "A-lists" and "B-lists" every round. If a chapter is, for example, supposed to have 100 women at the first invitational round, and they historically have a 50% return rate, they'd get to issue 200 invitations, and have, say, 10 on the "B-list". The computer would do the first round of scheduling as normal, and if the chapter had fewer than 90 women, any women on the B-list who didn't have full schedules would then be added.

It would be a way for chapters to take a second look at a PNM who hadn't been their first choice, much the same way we encourage PNM's to take a second look at a chapter they ranked lower.

And that's exactly what the flex lists in RFM are... if a chapter doesn't do as well as historically then they will take PNMs from the plus flex list and issue more invitations... if a chapter does better than historically, then they won't invite PNMs from the minus flex list.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AZ-AlphaXi

And that's exactly what the flex lists in RFM are... if a chapter doesn't do as well as historically then they will take PNMs from the plus flex list and issue more invitations... if a chapter does better than historically, then they won't invite PNMs from the minus flex list.

The flex lists happen every round? Shows you how out-of-date I am. I thought they were just used at the end, if bid lists were turned in before the number for quota is set.

[AZ-AlphaXi]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

They sorta do that with the Flex List. The only problem is that I've seen chapters look at these women as "cut." It's like the ranking that PNMs do. It's hard to get PNMs to look at chapters that they "cut" when they turn up on their list again. From first hand experience, these women can be treated as leftovers or rejects in ways that Snap bids or other ways of maximizing aren't because the whole chapter isn't involved in that process. There would need to be a big PR push or way of doing it that made it not seem like these were women who are released who can be brought back if the chapter doesn't hit their return number.

Which is why a chapter is never required to provide a plus list. The women on the plus list should only be women for which the chapter says "gee I'm sorry that we have to cut Suzie Q and Polly PNM and Nancy NicePNM" and not oh my .. why did we invite back the Wicked Witch of the West?

[AZ-AlphaXi]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The flex lists happen every round? Shows you how out-of-date I am. I thought they were just used at the end, if bid lists were turned in before the number for quota is set.

With RFM, flex lists are asked for for every round. Minus lists are required to be provided, plus lists are not. Although, if a chapter is continually inviting all PNMs left in their pool, plus lists are kind of irrelevant.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AZ-AlphaXi

Which is why a chapter is never required to provide a plus list. The women on the plus list should only be women for which the chapter says "gee I'm sorry that we have to cut Suzie Q and Polly PNM and Nancy NicePNM" and not oh my .. why did we invite back the Wicked Witch of the West?

Really? That wasn't explained to the chapter in question...or at least the adviser didn't want them to know. That led to problems later. Good to know.

[AZ-AlphaXi]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Really? That wasn't explained to the chapter in question...or at least the adviser didn't want them to know. That led to problems later. Good to know.

Here's the link to NPC's current report on RFM

https://www.npcwomen.org/resources/p...ate%202010.pdf

it talks about flex lists on the second page.

[AZTheta]

I do not have to understand any of this. I have AZ-AlphaXi to understand it for me. That is yet another benefit of our friendship!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AZ-AlphaXi

Here's the link to NPC's current report on RFM

https://www.npcwomen.org/resources/p...ate%202010.pdf

it talks about flex lists on the second page.

Thanks! It makes total sense when I stopped to think about it. You can't make a chapter take back women they don't want, but if they're smart, they'll build it into their MS system.