California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Are you as pissed about your tax money being used to deal with the guys that are so straight in Texas they've got MULTIPLE wives and are so straight they even start up with girls under the age of 14?

Are you as pissed at all of the taxpayer money involved in all those constitutional amendments AGAINST gay marriage that were drafted and put all over the ballots in multiple states in 2004? (and will likely be again, at least in California, now, in 2008)

.

Nittany-You should also have asked about the fact that those wives and unmarried mothers also collect a great deal of tax monies as well.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Nittany-You should also have asked about the fact that those wives and unmarried mothers also collect a great deal of tax monies as well.

DOH!!! EXCELLENT point, Jon! Yeah, what he said!

[PeppyGPhiB]

A lot of gay people work in my industry (PR and advertising), so I've been lucky enough to know many gay people. After reading all these posts, I just don't understand how some of you could think the GLBT community is trying to make this issue political. This is a legal definition battle for them - it's the christian conservatives that are making it a political issue. I believe there are only seven states that allow civil unions. Many of you probably have no idea of the lack of rights gay people, and gay couples, have in many states - they don't qualify for their partner's insurance, they aren't entitled to death benefits or the tax benefits, and even if their partner is sick and dying in the hospital, the hospital does not have to release any information on their condition. In fact, if a gay person is in a terrible car accident that puts them in a vegetative state, the hospital would actually look to any relative, no matter how far removed, to make decisions regarding the patient's care over a partner of 20 years even.

In many states gay people are not a protected class for some of our most basic rights, including employment. Did you know that in the majority of our states, a person could be fired from their job just for being gay? No cause needed - being gay is the cause. What gay people are looking for is the same legal rights straight Americans have, and the same protections other minorities in America have.

ETA: this clip from the Ellen show yesterday made me smile =) http://youtube.com/watch?v=G-nGsN1_fM8

[Kevin]

It's a legal definition issue for them because the only place they can realistically make changes is in the courts.

My argument is that whether they're morally right or wrong, the courts are not the place to be changing the law.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

How did gay people turn their private lives into a political agenda?

It seems to me that the only real difference between a gay person and a straight person is who they decide to "sleep" with.

Case in point ---

A good friend and I were in grad school at the same time. She is gay (lesbian) and I'm straight. We're both Black females of the same age. We both have similar backgrounds in terms of family. She is Catholic, I'm protestant - basically both of us are of Christian religions. She had struggles in grad school, so did I.

The only major difference is that she went out with girls, I went out with guys. Our similarities ended at the bedroom door, if you will.

I think that what ever you do in your private life is your business. Some people are into S&M, threesomes and bondage - I don't see any of those people at the court house demanding equal rights.

No one is going to know what you do in the privacy of your home unless you put it out there. No pun intended.

Oh, another thing about my friend. She is from the Chicago area and I'm from Texas - maybe that is another significant difference.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

What gay people are looking for is the same legal rights....... and the same protections other minorities in America have.

This is one thing about the 'gays need rights like minorities have' that bothers me so much. Gays are not minorities, and when gays equate themselves as such, I find it to be very offensive. Whenever anyone can find evidence of when gays were brought to this country against their will, forced to live in inhumane physical, mental, cultural, and spritual bondage for over 300 years in this country. Where gay women were forced to have babies for the 'massa' just to produce more people to enslave. Where gay men were beaten down and torn from their families. Where gay people were given outdated books to use in public schools. When you can find evidence like that, then *maybe* I'll buy the gays are minorities argument. Until then, please stop calling them that. If you're gay, you're gay. But don't equate being gay with being a minority in this country.

As far as I can tell, with White gays especially, they still get better treatment than I do. Why? Because at the end of the day they are White and I'm not. And if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton, since it will be the less educated White people who can get her into the White House.
(Meaning one's race is more important than anything else.)

[Leslie Anne]

You were actually doing a good job contradicting your anti-gay marriage statement here:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

It seems to me that the only real difference between a gay person and a straight person is who they decide to "sleep" with.

Case in point ---

A good friend and I were in grad school at the same time. She is gay (lesbian) and I'm straight. We're both Black females of the same age. We both have similar backgrounds in terms of family. She is Catholic, I'm protestant - basically both of us are of Christian religions. She had struggles in grad school, so did I.

The only major difference is that she went out with girls, I went out with guys. Our similarities ended at the bedroom door, if you will.

Exactly! So if that's the ONLY difference, then why are you allowed to marry but she isn't?


And then you slipped into the completely illogical:

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I think that what ever you do in your private life is your business. Some people are into S&M, threesomes and bondage - I don't see any of those people at the court house demanding equal rights.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

This is one thing about the 'gays need rights like minorities have' that bothers me so much. Gays are not minorities, and when gays equate themselves as such, I find it to be very offensive. Whenever anyone can find evidence of when gays were brought to this country against their will, forced to live in inhumane physical, mental, cultural, and spritual bondage for over 300 years in this country. Where gay women were forced to have babies for the 'massa' just to produce more people to enslave. Where gay men were beaten down and torn from their families. Where gay people were given outdated books to use in public schools. When you can find evidence like that, then *maybe* I'll buy the gays are minorities argument. Until then, please stop calling them that. If you're gay, you're gay. But don't equate being gay with being a minority in this country.

So African-Americans are the only minorities? I don't think you quite understand what the word "minority" means. At its root, it's simply about percentages not cultural history.

[ASUADPi]

I'm beyond thrilled that California overturned the ban. Too bad Arizona is now attempting to put a prop on the November ballot deeming marriage as between a "man and a women" I'm actually looking forward to voting against that stupid prop.

Homosexuals deserve the same "domestic" rights as a married couple as PeppyGPhiB stated earlier.

[nate2512]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

A good friend and I were in grad school at the same time. She is gay (lesbian) and I'm straight. We're both Black females of the same age. We both have similar backgrounds in terms of family. She is Catholic, I'm protestant - basically both of us are of Christian religions. She had struggles in grad school, so did I.

Oh, there is one more difference when you got married, you probably did it in church, and your marriage was probably blessed by an ordained minister and God. Your friend won't get this because gays and lesbians are an abomination in the eye's of God.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

As far as I can tell, with White gays especially, they still get better treatment than I do. Why? Because at the end of the day they are White and I'm not. And if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton, since it will be the less educated White people who can get her into the White House.
(Meaning one's race is more important than anything else.)

So their opinion matters less because they weren't so fortunate to go to college as you and I?

And why does it have to be about race? I'm sick of people always making things out about race?

[ASUADPi]

Originally Posted by nate2512

Your friend won't get this because gays and lesbians are an abomination in the eye's of God.

Well in my God's eyes gays and lesbians are still his children, he still sent his son to Earth and his son still died for all our sins. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus died for "only the hetrosexual" people's sins, but for all our sins.



My brother's ex-girlfriend came out probably about 3 years ago. It was something we had known for a while, but she didn't tell us. I'm sure it was because of her fear. Her parents reacted very negatively to her sister coming out (disowned her), she was probably afraid her friends would do the same. In reality, we didn't care. As a friend of my brother (and therefore of the family) we all just wanted her to be happy, whether it was with a male partner or a female partner. Now that she has come out, I can see the difference in her. She is a much happier person, probably because she isn't feeling the shame of trying to hide who she really is. She has an amazing girlfriend and a beautiful daugther. She is truly happy with herself now.




I have a feeling though this thread is going to get waaayyyy off topic because people have very strong opinions when it comes to 1. homosexuals 2. religion and 3. politics.

I'm all about open debate and people discussing their opinions, but I guess we need to be nice about it.

[Thetagirl218]

Originally Posted by JonoBN41

Definitions are changed and added to all the time. A pen is no longer a quill dipped in ink, phones need not be connected by wires, and automobiles aren't necessarily powered by internal combustion engines. But we didn't take up petitions to ban ball-point pens, cellphones, and electric or hybrid cars just because they didn't fit the existing definition. And who would propose banning online bulletin boards such as Greek Chat simply because it's not an actual board attached to a wall? When women were elected to the House of Representatives, they weren't "congressmen", they are called congresswomen. Things change. We progress.

When has mankind - oops humankind - ever constrained itself from experiencing something new out of fear of a definition?

The terms "married" and "spouse" are written into innumerable policies including insurance coverage, probate laws, tax laws, and trying to find out someone's condition at a hospital, just to name a few. Civil union might sound as if it's good enough, but is not the same thing.

Definitions do change, but I don't think the examples you gave can be used as a proper analogy to gay marriage!

All of things you listed were terms or objects created by man, yet the main point in this whole issue is that those against gay marriage (like myself) believe that the ideal of marriage was created by God or a higher power.

I get sick to my stomach when people compare gay rights to suffrage or civil rights! They are not the same! The latter two dealt with people groups that were purposefully not given Constitutional rights because of a predisposed condition at birth, whether it be skin color or gender.

There are many who say gay and lesbians were like this from birth, but I disagree. I think in the end one has a choice what lifestyle there are going to live, and this applies to many things not just sexual orientation.

I do believe that people can have predisposed features that many be more feminine or masculine, but again there is still the choice factor.

As for the court case in CA, it really didn't surprise me! California is always very liberal in decisions like this, but I have a feeling that if the referendum passed than a amendment will also pass come fall.

I feel that this is an issue for legislation not the courts though I do understand the reason for the decision given the checks and balances.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

Exactly! So if that's the ONLY difference, then why are you allowed to marry but she isn't?

Because as a Christian, the Bible says so. For me there is no contradiction. Being gay is about sexual behavior, not whether you can drive a car or not. Gays can still ive their lives as they want. I just don't think they should get married.

And then you slipped into the completely illogical:

I was just trying to be funny here....guess it got lost in the message.

So African-Americans are the only minorities?

No, AfAm are not the only minorities, but they are the only ones that I feel comfortable speaking about becasue I am one.

I don't think you quite understand what the word "minority" means. At its root, it's simply about percentages not cultural history.

From my life experience it is about both. I can not separate one from the other.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by nate2512

Oh, there is one more difference when you got married, you probably did it in church, and your marriage was probably blessed by an ordained minister and God. Your friend won't get this because gays and lesbians are an abomination in the eye's of God.

True. And so are adulteres, fornicators, liers and theives. A sin is a sin. There are no "big" sins or "little" sins. We have all sinned in God's eyes and we must ask for forgiveness. All of us. I will be judged as will gay people.

So their opinion matters less because they weren't so fortunate to go to college as you and I?

No. The opposite. The media is making it out to be that their opinion matters more, despite the fact that they did not go to college.

Sidebar -->I'm not the one making an issue out of the whole what group will vote for whom, the media is. I was just using that as an example of how race is a more important factor than sexuality.

And why does it have to be about race? I'm sick of people always making things out about race?

Because in this country it has always been about race. I did not make that rule, I just try to live by it.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by ASUADPi

Well in my God's eyes gays and lesbians are still his children, he still sent his son to Earth and his son still died for all our sins. The Bible doesn't say that Jesus died for "only the hetrosexual" people's sins, but for all our sins.

I agree. But people still do sin, despite the fact Jesus died for all of our sins.
Just becasue Jesus died for our sins, it did not give all of us a "free pass" to live as we want. The New Testament speaks to this.

I'm all about open debate and people discussing their opinions, but I guess we need to be nice about it.

I feel that everyone has been.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

You selfish gays, you.

Sorry.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I would expect them to participate in attempting to gain equality. It directly affects them.

If straight people find it "morally wrong," then they don't have to get married to someone of the same sex. Simple as that.

It's so simple, isn't it?

Originally Posted by SECdomination

Second, yes- Civil Unions sound good enough to me, so how are they not the same thing? Doesn't this go back to the idea that they just want to "fit in" so they can call their relationship a marriage?

One reason that civil unions aren't good enough is that they are not portable beyond the state they were issued. Another is that there are like 2000 or so rights that automatically come with marriage that have to be duplicated when a state creates civil unions. In a nutshell, it's a waste of time and resources.

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

I cosign whoever said it's not the homosexual community generating most of the activity around this issue, if anything, they are forced time and again to fight against all the initiatives that are first being taken against them as citizens in this society. Does it really impact your life if two women or two men want to exchange vows with each other, Nate? Does it really? Because if the ultraconservatives and evangelists would just leave the issue alone, let the decisions that have allowed gay marriage to stand and spend THEIR time worrying about the economy, global warning and gas prices, then I'm fairly sure the homosexual community would be happy to live their lives and be at peace.

Amen.

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

A lot of gay people work in my industry (PR and advertising), so I've been lucky enough to know many gay people. After reading all these posts, I just don't understand how some of you could think the GLBT community is trying to make this issue political. This is a legal definition battle for them - it's the christian conservatives that are making it a political issue. I believe there are only seven states that allow civil unions. Many of you probably have no idea of the lack of rights gay people, and gay couples, have in many states - they don't qualify for their partner's insurance, they aren't entitled to death benefits or the tax benefits, and even if their partner is sick and dying in the hospital, the hospital does not have to release any information on their condition. In fact, if a gay person is in a terrible car accident that puts them in a vegetative state, the hospital would actually look to any relative, no matter how far removed, to make decisions regarding the patient's care over a partner of 20 years even.

In many states gay people are not a protected class for some of our most basic rights, including employment. Did you know that in the majority of our states, a person could be fired from their job just for being gay? No cause needed - being gay is the cause. What gay people are looking for is the same legal rights straight Americans have, and the same protections other minorities in America have.

ETA: this clip from the Ellen show yesterday made me smile =) http://youtube.com/watch?v=G-nGsN1_fM8

Amen again.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

This is one thing about the 'gays need rights like minorities have' that bothers me so much. Gays are not minorities, and when gays equate themselves as such, I find it to be very offensive. Whenever anyone can find evidence of when gays were brought to this country against their will, forced to live in inhumane physical, mental, cultural, and spritual bondage for over 300 years in this country. Where gay women were forced to have babies for the 'massa' just to produce more people to enslave. Where gay men were beaten down and torn from their families. Where gay people were given outdated books to use in public schools. When you can find evidence like that, then *maybe* I'll buy the gays are minorities argument. Until then, please stop calling them that. If you're gay, you're gay. But don't equate being gay with being a minority in this country.

As far as I can tell, with White gays especially, they still get better treatment than I do. Why? Because at the end of the day they are White and I'm not. And if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton, since it will be the less educated White people who can get her into the White House.
(Meaning one's race is more important than anything else.)

The cult of victimhood still runs rampant in the black community.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Because as a Christian, the Bible says so.

And there are plenty of gay Christians.