Greek problems at Duquesne University

[DUgrad]

HI ALL:

One of my sisters emailed yesterday and the alum have decided to contact our national offices for support. Maybe this is the only way for Duquesne to listen.

[AlleeGreek]

I think I'll contact our alum/advisor group & do the same. This may be the only way to work on these problems.

Not sure what our nationals can do though.....

[DU Greek]

I've spent a lot of time reading all of your chats, and I thought I'd chime in with a few corrections, updates, and truth about what you're discussing.

I'm the President of the Greek Alumni Council so I certainly have the information available to me. I live in Pittsburgh; I'm on campus at least once a week; and I'm President of the Alumni Board of Trustees for my Fraternity's chapter.

There are many misstatements and misrepresentations in your postings, DUGrad.

Duquesne is NOT trying to close Greek Life at Duquesne. There have NOT been a lot of chapters closed.

First - the state of the chapters:

All of the "closed" chapters you spoke of were locals. Each of the locals has been replaced by an IFC National. Anyone who knows Greek Life on a National basis today will tell you that locals represent a major liability to ALL chapters on every campus.

Locals don't buy insurance; they don't have traveling leadership consultants; they don't have anti-hazing programming; they don't have national leaders to hold them accountable to higher standards of Greek Life.

Nationals HAVE to replace locals. When a local Fraternity causes an anti-Greek incident to hit the news (ie hazing or drinking), how many people sitting at home say to themselves, "oh, that must have been a local." No one. No one cares about the difference between locals and nationals. They only say, oh, there's those stupid sororities again.

The chapters currently at Duquesne represent the best the IFC and PHC has to offer. The day of the locals is over, and Duquesne has done an excellent job keeping strong chapters at Duquesne.

Second, the housing:

DUGrad, you're completely double-speaking yourself, and many of you agreed. You first said that Duquesne was "killing" your chapters by taking away your wings, but then went on to say that every place from Brottier to South Side is cheaper to live. Well, if the Towers wing isn't important to your chapter, how is the University killing it by taking it away??

It's not fair to independents who are paying the exact same money for a space in Towers that during pledging, ritual, and other Fraternity/Sorority meetings that they have to stay in their rooms or off the wing. They also have to live on a wing with coats of arms on the walls, doors, and in the kitchens.

So why is it that INDEPENDENTS are willing to spend money to live in Towers but your own sisters are not?? Where's the sisterhood?

Here's a suggestion - The sisters who don't choose to live in Towers have to pay a Parlor fee to help offset the costs of those who do. It will help the sisters keep the wing and still be allowed to live where they want.

Third: Duquesne's policy on funding wing improvements has not changed. It has been the same for years. Duquesne pays half, and the chapter pays half. DU will pay up to $1000 a year in this program. That's a lot of coin for even the full wings. Nothing has changed.

Fourth: Red Rover: To say that the University doesn't have wealthy Greek Alumni is completely off-base. The university has a ton of wealthy alumni. Did you notice how every new building, department chair, skywalk, planter, and water fountain has someone's name on it? Those aren't poor alumni.

The University knows that the Greek Alumni are the most well-organized and most-generous group of alumni. That is true for ANY campus. The Alumni Office is VERY committed to keeping Greek Life alive at Duquesne.

My question is: Are YOU? What have you done to help your chapters? In the amount of time you've spent complaining on this board, you could have corresponded with your sisters and brothers about how to create better Associate Member programming, organized an alumni event for your chapter, or planned a brotherhood/sisterhood retreat to talk about ways to be better recruiters.

And Red Rover, you questioned whether the Alumni would "care." Look at the Board of Directors of the University and see who is Greek DU Alum. Have you? Do you know who Anthony Carfang is? How about Jim O'Day? These are powerful, wealthy people who care deeply about the success of the Greek system. Even if you believe Father Hogan wants to destroy Greek Life, go back to one of your earlier points about his bosses being the Board of Directors - guess what - they're Greek, too. And someone else said that the Spiritans are Fr. Hogan's other bosses. Guess what - you're right - and they're Greek too. How many priests who live at Duquesne are Faculty Advisors or Spiritual Advisors? Almost every chapter has a relationship with one priest; some have multiples.

DU Grad: I'm going to question your authenticity. To not know that Fr. Hogan is the Executive Vice President of Student Life is absurd. At one point, you said, the "Dean of Students" might be a priest.

Are you kidding? You were there for four years, have "received a ton" of emails from your sisters questioning DU committment to the Greek system, and you're not sure of the position of the person ultimately responsible for the system? Come on. Quit playing "woe is me" and start working for your chapter.

I'll close with this: I sat on the Selection Committee to pick the new Director of Greek Life after Ron Shidemantle left for Virginia Tech. I can promise you - the University only wanted the BEST for the Greek System. They told us to pick the best available person to take the Greek System to the next level. The committee reviewed some of the finest Greek leaders in the NATION. We were not asked to pick someone who would be a puppet to the administration - were asked to pick the BEST. The person we chose IS GREEK, worked for her chapter as a leadership consultant, worked in Greek Life, has a master's in Higher Ed, and is DEDICATED to seeing the Greek System survive and flourish at Duquesne.

I think you should set up a time to meet with us if you're concerned about the system. I think what you'll find is drastically different than what you wrote about.

Fraternally,
Craig

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DU Greek

All of the "closed" chapters you spoke of were locals. Each of the locals has been replaced by an IFC National. Anyone who knows Greek Life on a National basis today will tell you that locals represent a major liability to ALL chapters on every campus.

Locals don't buy insurance; they don't have traveling leadership consultants; they don't have anti-hazing programming; they don't have national leaders to hold them accountable to higher standards of Greek Life.

Nationals HAVE to replace locals.

I am not a DU alum (although I drive past it a lot) but I stopped reading or believing anything you had to say after I read this because you obviously drank the Kool-Aid - or should I say hater-ade.

Many colleges have local fraternities and sororities that operate just as well, if not better, than nationals. Many local fraternities and sororities have alum support that chapters of nationals can only DREAM about.

Many locals do have insurance. They do have anti-hazing pledge programs. You are right in that they don't have traveling consultants (that would be pretty stupid) and they don't have national boards who are 1000s of miles away who never have visited the campus - but they DO have alumni who not only hold the organization, but the school, close to their hearts. They have to answer to those alumni.

You aren't going to get any support from alumni who have affection and respect for the locals - who had a long history - by bashing them and saying things that are just outright lies.

Oh, and just because someone was a leadership consultant does not automatically make them qualified to be a Greek advisor - especially if she never worked w/ a chapter at a school that is in the middle of a city like Duquesne is.

[DUgrad]

I would like to respond to DU Greek. I started this chat because I had been hearing from my sisters that all is not well at Duquesne. My intention was to see if others were feeling the same way and it is apparent I struck a chord with others out there. Not only did alum check out this site but so did collegiates.

I will try to respond to you Craig the very best way I know how and go point by point with you. We certainly can agree to disagree.

I do not live in Pittsburgh. I live and work in New York. Many of my sisters log on to this site to talk about different things from helping each other locate jobs to talking about how much fun we had while we were undergraduates at Duquesne.

I will speak first to the idea of "locals" vs. "nationals." You are correct that most of Duquesne's chapters are national. However, I would remind you that Gamma Phi is not a national fraternity..it is, in fact, local. Why have they been permitted to stay when others were asked to leave. Do they hold insurance, as you suggest, that is different from the Betas, or Kappa Sigma Phi?

Housing: Housing was an issue even when I graduated a little over four years ago. What I have been told, and you are certainly willing to disagree, is that the housing in Towers is now becoming freshman and sophomore as DU has grown. What is the population of juniors and seniors vs. freshman and sophomore in Towers? My parents made me move out in my junior year because FAFSA and other loans were not available to me to pay for housing. I had no choice..my parents couldn't pay anymore. I was able to split the cost of living on the southside with my friends for a fraction of what DU was asking for housing.

I was never made aware that DU paid for half of everything when it came to our wing. My sisters have told me that they were asked to pitch in thousands of dollars for improvements to our wing...did DU pay thousands of dollars as their half of was it just up to $1,000.00. Was there any contract, signed by DU to our chapter that stated we would be paying thousands of dollars more?

I cannot answer your questions regarding alumni and how much they give. My parents could not afford to go to college and we are not native to Pittsburgh. You will have to take that up with Red Rover.

I do not know the new head of Greek Life...only through emails with my collegiate sisters. They feel immense pressure to try and do things from service, to other things while trying to do their school work. Maybe GLO should back off of some of the projects and pick just a few as a compromise.

I do think that meetings should be held where anyone who has responded to this site can come and meet with you.

[DUgrad]

DU Greek:

I just heard from a good friend who was in a local fraternity. He said to tell you this. "Local fraternities and sororities BUILT Duquesne brick by brick. He should get down on his knees and thank the Lord for their help both as undergraduates and as alumni. To suggest that locals bring nothing to the table...he's talking stupid."

[DU Greek]

Thank you all for your replies. I really do want try to inject a little of my perspective into this discussion, because although 33Girl objects, I am more involved with the Greek System at Duquesne than any of you (through your own admissions).

While I respect how this board was started to open a discussion about what is really going on at Duquesne's Greek Life system, to immediately reject any and all of my comments is counterproductive. You certainly have the right to disagree with some of my opinions, but there ARE certain facts that you need to have. I am the President of my chapter's Alumni Advisor board, so my experience is not purely from the University side. I've also been an instructor at my Fraternity's national leadership college, so I've heard plenty about other schools' system, too.

Regardless, you had questions about individual locals. NONE of the locals was ever asked to close up or affiliate with a national preemptively. EACH of the locals at some point in history was faced with declining membership, a severe judicial issue, or apathy among the brothers or sisters that caused the chapter's future to be in question. When any of these things happened, Duquesne could have completely shut down the chapter and that's it. But all locals had the opportunity to merge into a national organization because the University understood the importance of the strength of a strong Greek Chapter. The best examples of this are AE/ATO. This chapter was Alpha Epsilon local for many years and for some reason, chose to affiliate with Alpha Tau Omega. This alumni group refers to themselves as AE/ATO and they're very proud of both groups' history.

Second is ZBT/SAE. Again, ZBT was facing imminent closure and decided to affiliate with SAE to remain open and get the benefits associated with being a part of a large national.

On the sorority side, there are others, too. Unfortunately, I forget the old/new letters combinations, but for the most part, each of the women who has been around long enough to remember the old local is proud of the successes of the new. My only direct experience has been watching Sigma Lambda Phi affiliate with Sigma Kappa.

If your friend ,who I assume is a recent graduate, finds it necessary to remind me that every brick was laid by locals, that's fine, but Jim O'Day, who is an AE from before the merger, doesn't see it that way. He understands the value of a large national organization and understands that while locals were a tremendous asset to the University, the fact remains that today, they struggle to compete.

There are some locals who faced a severe membership or judicial issue who didn't even have the support from alumni to facilitate affiliating with a new organization. It saddens me to see any Greek organization leave, but there's some times when it's out of anyone's control to help.

The Gamma Phis have competed well in the University system. They have a strong brotherhood and have a positive track record. The University has no desire to force a local chapter to go national without cause, and Gammas serve as an example of that.

Second issue: I'm not going to deny that housing is a serious issue. And I'm not going to tell you that the University's position is the best. But I can tell you that it's going to be a couple of years before there's new housing on campus, and until that occurs, it's going to be a struggle. It's a struggle for all students. Duquesne simply does not have the necessary housing.

But to say that Duquesne is using the housing issue to force out the Greek system is absurd. It's a major problem. Discussions ARE ongoing every month between the Greek Alumni Council, the Office of Greek Life, and University Administration. They understand the undergrads' frustration, the alumni frustration, but until there's new housing on campus, it's a struggle.

It all starts with recruitment. If Towers is so crowded that we can't have our own wings, that means there's a ton of students who WANT to live in Towers. Let's recruit them. Duquesne is never going to have Greek Houses - I said HOUSES, not HOUSING - so we'd better be able to come up with creative ways to protect what we do have. My parlor fee suggestion works. So does having a bylaw that requires officers' to live on the wing.

It's really hard to convince the Administration that the housing problem is killing the Greek System when there are certain fraternities and sororities that have kept their wings.

Finally, the new Director of Greek Life was more than a leadership consultant. She has experience at Ohio State, University of South Florida, and John Carroll. All three are in large cities, and it can be argued that Duquesne and John Carroll (Cleveland) are exact peers.

And it also should be mentioned that Duquesne's Greek system is much more advanced that John Carroll's.

I would be very enthusiastic about meeting with anyone from this page. HOWEVER, it appears that most of what you're looking to do is complain. I am completely willing to meet with this entire group, but I'm not interested in sitting in on a bitch session. If you're TRULY interested in hearing the truth about what the UNIVERSITY can do, what the OFFICE OF GREEK LIFE can do, and what YOU must do, I'll facilitate any meeting. But there is WORK that is required on your part. The solutions to these problems do not get handed down to you by anyone. You have to continue (or begin) to work with your undergraduates to accept the challenges and succeed in spite of them. Perhaps you should look around and see how lucky we really are for what we DO have. This isn't Penn State or VT or Arizona State, but it's certainly a strong, proud Greek system.

The Greek Alumni Council has our next meeting during the upcoming Carnival. I will be around most of the day Saturday. If you're coming to Carnival, please let me know and we can schedule a time to talk.

[rufio]

asu has a weak greek system.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DU Greek

Thank you all for your replies. I really do want try to inject a little of my perspective into this discussion, because although 33Girl objects

I don't "object" - talk your head off. I'm just saying that when I read a post that puts down locals across the board in the way that you did, I'm guessing that the rest of what the person has to say will be similarly 1) incorrect or 2) HQ/administration PR that they are regurgitating without thinking about it. But it's funny to read.

Oh, and I don't know why you are including ZBT turning into SAE with the "locals" issue....ZBT is a national fraternity. Of course, it's a historically Jewish national fraternity, so maybe that was the problem.

[DU Greek]

What's the average size of your Fraternities? How big is the largest? Over 100?

[PhoenixAzul]

{ sarc }
Wait, wait, I must have missed the memo?

The time for locals is over?

Geez...man....what have my sisters been doing for the last 87 years? Time to pack up the crest...
{ / sarc }

< deploy local sorority defense team >
The quality of locals is a campus-by-campus thing. In some places, they're the cream of the crop, better than nationals. In others, they're your stereotypical local, that I want to kick in the shins because they give the rest of us a bad name. But you get that with nationals as well. There are chapters out there that ruin the good name of the organization. Unfortunately, in the case of locals...they've only got one chapter, one reputation to ruin. That's some high stakes.
As a local, we are overseen by the university, who holds our charter. If we step out of line, we can be closed, lose our house, lose the right to recruit, etc. Period. We are also overseen by our alumnae board, who can chose to close us. And we have a staff adviser, who keeps us in line w/ university policy. There is a Panhellenic and IFC council, as well as a Greek Governing Board for disciplinary actions. Alcohol consumption/liability issues are easy : it is forbidden anywhere on campus, including fraternity/sorority houses and any function associated with the sorority, including events off campus (camping weekends, etc). Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it means there are definite consequences.

Becoming a national is not a panacea. As you can see on the "operations" board...nationals have their fair share of hazing, alochol consumption, and general craziness, despite consultants and programming and etc.

[rufio]

Originally Posted by DU Greek

What's the average size of your Fraternities? How big is the largest? Over 100?

some of the larger chapters, especially the ones on greek row can have upwards of a 100 members. many of the off campus chapters have anywhere from 10 to 80 members. The Greek system here is composed of 22 Fraternities (IFC) and 12 sororities (PAN) ASU is a very populated campus with greek life attributing to roughly 5% of the student body. what makes it a weak system is that there is very little support from the university to promote greek life and an overwhelming negative stereotype of the greek system from the student body. Also, there is little to no greek unity amongst ourselves.

[DUgrad]

DU Greek:

You've offended local fraternity and sorority members both on a local level and on a national level. Instead of trying to explain them away, why didn't you just apologize for the remarks? I dated a Gamma and he is offended by your calous handling of local vs. national. There should even be a "versus" issue if you think that the Gammas are good men on DU's campus.

As I said in the very first thread when I opened this discussion, DU needs to find out why recruitment numbers are down when the largest freshman class in the history of the school came in last year. Why doesn't someone ask the entire student body at DU why they aren't going through recruitment. Maybe then you will find your answers to many of these questions.

[DUgrad]

DU Greek:

I just received an email from one of my sisters who has been watching this site. Freshman and sophomores are REQUIRED to live in on campus housing, which would mean Towers for most if not all as they become sophomores.

They don't WANT to live in Towers...they HAVE to live in Towers. Again, what is the ratio of freshman and sophomores versus juniors and seniors living in Towers?

[DU Greek]

It's the overall negativity of your postings that I don't wish to compete with, DU Grad. I am as pro-Greek as they come and I fully support any organization that is supportive of the Greek system for the positive force for change it has developed into today. As I said, each local had a chance to succeed as the Gammas have done. Those who have not done well have affiliated with national organizations. These are facts; whatever else you read from my comments is fictitious.

Your willingness to jump down my throat for my comments proves to me that you're just in a witch-hunt to find someone to help you crucify the Greek system at your own University.

I heard one time at a National Fraternity Convention: "The Greek system is its own worst enemy."

I fight the negative stereotypes among the independents and general public every day, and I do so with passion, pride, and strength. But having to defend the Greek system from fellow Greeks is relatively new to me, and I understand now what that quote meant.

From this point forward, I hope you'll quit bitching and actually get involved to help change things in your chapter.

I'll continue to do hard work to improve the Greek System at Duquesne, and I'm confident many others will join me.

I still hold out hope that SOMEONE will contact me for an in-person meeting to discuss the issues at Duquesne off-line. So far, no one has. So, I'll continue with my work thankful that your negativity has not extended beyond the pages of this blog.

Duquesne Greeks - Onward and Upward

Craig