Underground Chapters

[RACooper]

Originally posted by Taualumna
I think they're just trying to find an excuse. The marching band at Queen's is seen by some as "elitist" as well, but officially, no one has issues with them.

Ah yes.... those damn Gaels...

Anyways I think the wording of the "ban" is interesting:
By resolution of Senate, no student registered with the University may form or become a member of any chapter of an externally affiliated fraternity or sorority at or near Kingston.

Most just assume that it means no GLOs (and the school likes it that way)... but it is basically a sanction against outside influence... nothing really stopping Locals or home gown "elitist" groups starting up - hence some things like Medical House...

[Tom Earp]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Of course, which is why I said earlier that "underground" has taken on a more fluid meaning. Obviously, a short hand is needed. And I wouldn't have a problem with "underground fraternity, which is what you used above, or even "underground house." My problem is with using "underground chapter" to describe a group operating without a national fraternity's authorization.

"Underground" in the context of fraternity operations means "secret" or "clandestine." Thus, for a "chapter" to be "underground," it has to be operating clandestinely with regard to some authority. Historically, the authority in question was the academic institution.

Now, the term is sometimes/often used where the authority is the fraternity itself, or perhaps the fraternity and the academic institution. My only point was that "underground chapter" is probably not the best shorthand for "members of the former chapter of XYZ who used to be chartered but now are not and are a just a group of people posing as a chapter." It's not the best shorthand because (1) "underground chapter" implies that the group really is a chapter of a national GLO when it's not, and (2) "underground chapter" historically has a specific meaning for GLOs: a fully-chartered clandestine chapter, the existence or membership of which is kept secret from -- or at least not admitted to -- the academic institution. One can still find this kind of underground chapter at some schools today.

That's the only reason I questioned "underground chapter" as a good shorthand for renegade groups that a national fraternity doesn't know about or recognize.

While You make a good point, I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.

Underground can take on many forms whether via the School and / or the GLO!

I would venture to say Underground is not by the HQs as they would not acknowledge them, but depending on the School and what their feelings are which vary would be the deciding factor.

[gogoaphi]

Regarding Santa Clara ... I never would have used the word "underground" to describe the greek system there. It is true that the University does not recognize or otherwise support the system. It simply operates as its own organization. The University knows who we are and where we are at, but they aren't involved in operations. We respect and abide by their rules and wishes in terms of not using campus assets for chapter business, don't promote on campus, etc. The Panhellenic operates like a PH in most greek systems. Our advisor just isn't someone from the University. As for the men ... well, let's just say they are a little less structured. It occurs to me that most men like like it that way (especially at that age). We still have lots of tradition and events where other students from the university participate such as our philanthropy events. Alpha Phi's chapter at Santa Clara is one of the largest donor chapters in the country. So ... this is a highly functioning system that operates in a mutually respectful manner outside of the university. We don't have to go "underground" be all secretive about it or anything.

Does that help????

[TSteven]

Originally posted by gogoaphi
Regarding Santa Clara ... I never would have used the word "underground" to describe the greek system there. It is true that the University does not recognize or otherwise support the system. It simply operates as its own organization. The University knows who we are and where we are at, but they aren't involved in operations. We respect and abide by their rules and wishes in terms of not using campus assets for chapter business, don't promote on campus, etc. The Panhellenic operates like a PH in most greek systems. Our advisor just isn't someone from the University. As for the men ... well, let's just say they are a little less structured. It occurs to me that most men like like it that way (especially at that age). We still have lots of tradition and events where other students from the university participate such as our philanthropy events. Alpha Phi's chapter at Santa Clara is one of the largest donor chapters in the country. So ... this is a highly functioning system that operates in a mutually respectful manner outside of the university. We don't have to go "underground" be all secretive about it or anything.

Does that help????

Sorry for any confusion. In my example, I did not intend to imply that Santa Clara's chapters were underground - just unrecognized by the university. As such, *I* did not consider them to be underground. Again, apologies for any confusion.

Originally posted by TSteven
Just what is an underground chapter and how does it operate? Especially with respect to recruitment.

To be clear, I understand *unrecognized* or *unregistered* chapters - where the inter/national HQ recognizes the chapter as a member chapter yet the campus does not recognize or support GLOs per say. (i.e. Santa Clara University, perhaps some Ivy League campuses) Also those groups that *use to be* a chapter of an inter/national GLO but now operate as a local. (i.e. Chi Tau at Chico State)

My confusion is with the group that is not recognized by the inter/national HQ (i.e. suspended, charter pulled, etc.) yet claims or presents itself as a NALFO, NIC, NMGC, NPC, NPHC, or any other inter/national GLO chapter.

And thank you for your post. It does help to better understand Santa Clara's Greek system.

Originally posted by Amalia17
Why is it when I post a comment/question such as this I get yelled at and said I am "speculating" yet no one says boo about this post. I asked the exact question months ago and everyone said I am just pissy and starting rumors because I am not greek and have a sour grapes attitude.

Preserving this just in case she decides to delete like she did to the others.

That is all.

[Praecellemus]

I regards to tstevens original question.

I can speak from first hand experience on one of SR's "underground locals". This particular group originated from a
once recognized fraternity at SR. The core group of the former recognized fraternity decided to keep functioning and taking new members. (Myself being one of the first post-recognition "members") Since then the group has operated for 2 more years taking in new members. When I was in the process of joining, there was still a slight chance that the debt and problems with the school could have been resolved and the group continue to be recognized. The remaining brothers and the about half dozen interested in joining decided as a group not to pursue this.

Now this may shed some light onto the question why would anyone join something not recognized?

Here are a couple of reasons...
1. In our case it was a desire to remain small and not have to maintain a certain number of members. We didnt like the feeling
of having to fill quotas per say. We enjoy taking in exactly who we want when we want. This was a big one and the main reason... a desire to be small and exclusive to exactly the kind of member we want.
2. Right or wrong we didnt like the dues associated with being a part of a nat'l group. Our group consists of those who mostly could not afford the dues of a recognized group.

Next concerning any mis-representation issues....

Our group no longer uses the greek letters of the National Fraternity we were once a part of. The group is though still known
as the nickname the group had. This name is what we call ourselves and what we are known as. (Although,Some of the members do still have a few shirtswith the letters on... these are now mostly hand-me-downs and eventually will just go away I imagine.)
New members absolutely positively are NOT mis-lead in any way that they are joining a nat'l group. Everyone is made sure to understand exactly what we are, and what we arent. New members learn everything about the history of this particular organizion pre-national and post. INCLUDING how and why the group became a local. Concerning history members learn only about the particular chapters history, NOT the old nat'l fraternities as it is irrelevant to us now.

Is it a Fraternity?
Yes, IMO. If you share the same definition as I do. We are a brotherhood. We call each other brothers, and take the brotherhood VERY seriously. When we become members we make a committment to the group and to each other. If this is a fraternity then it is what we are. Alumni from our group as far back as I have met, accepted out decision and still consider me their brother. Do I consider members of the nat'l group we used to be a part of my brothers? NO.

Is it just a group of people who party?
NO. This is the common misconception with underground locals and something I cant stand. (True we are known as group of people who like to have a good time), but it isnt what we are about. Since going under the quality of member has been excellent. (We have had student government members, student leaders, other recognized campus group presidents, athletes, overall a good group GPA... I could go on and on(probably the
kind of people the recognized would love to have....) We are a group that holds to some of the ideals of the former nat'l fraternity...but we have also formed out own very unique ones. We hold to these ideas, we are VERY loyal to each and we have formed our own traditions.

One last note, not sure what that amalia or whatevers problem is. I'm not familiar with how the ASA group operates. They do still wear the nat'l letters. This though is none of my business. Its not what we do though. And as far as the other 2 local fraternities, the gentlmens club like us is not known by their old nat'l letters anymore they have dropped the last from their name, and the last is a merged new group of two former SR groups. We as a group get along with the recognized GLO's. I dont sense any animosity against us from them ever except minor rumblings every now and then when the rec. GLO's have problems recruiting and I guess they think the 2-3 people we take away from the pool of men each semester is taking away from their ability to recruit from the other 4000 elibigle men on the campus ha.

So essentially... we are now our own thing I guess. And before you slam it. Remember every fraternity had to start somewhere and at some point it was a group that just decided to do their own thing. We are very careful not to infringe on any copyrights
or break any laws.

I'm interested in what you all think?

[lenoxxx]

I wanted to make sure the spotlight gets shined on Shippensburg University of Pennsylvania as far as this topic goes.

My Alma Mater is Underground Fraternity Central, as an alumni it is hard to keep up if there are more underground fraternities or on campus fraternities there. Right now I THINK it is 6 underground and 6 on campus, but is a huge muddled mess. ALl but one of the off campus groups are former national fraternities that were on campus, some operate with their charters from their home offices.

The Admin is very embarrassed about this and has refused to even address their existence many times. In fact last year the Underground groups all had great rushes and in many ways have a great existence away from the discriminatory Greek rules of the University, so in many ways my university rewards national groups that go nuts and get kicked off campus.

But again, they would deny this and probably tell you they dont know anything about it!

enjoy!

Lenoxxx

[33girl]

Praecellemus,

Have you ever approached the school about becoming a recognized local group, or won't they allow locals to start up there? Or were your problems more with the school than your national?

[Praecellemus]

Because in the end you HAVE to be associated with a Nat'l Fraternity.

Below is the exact wording from the SR handbook.

"--the interest group will work in conjunction with the council officers and the Coordinator of Student Organizations to identify national organizations that may be interested in establishing a colony at Slippery Rock University. "

So you could not be a Local and be recognized by the school.

And this would defeat the reasons we left in the first place...
Because we want to stay around 15 members ONLY at all times. And of course then you have the idea that you are shopping around for a set of values that fit you which we dont want to do becuase we have our own.

[33girl]

OK gotcha. Thanks.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Praecellemus
Our group no longer uses the greek letters of the National Fraternity we were once a part of. The group is though still known
as the nickname the group had. This name is what we call ourselves and what we are known as. (Although,Some of the members do still have a few shirtswith the letters on... these are now mostly hand-me-downs and eventually will just go away I imagine.) New members absolutely positively are NOT mis-lead in any way that they are joining a nat'l group. Everyone is made sure to understand exactly what we are, and what we arent. New members learn everything about the history of this particular organizion pre-national and post. INCLUDING how and why the group became a local. Concerning history members learn only about the particular chapters history, NOT the old nat'l fraternities as it is irrelevant to us now.

Praecellemus,

Not trying to get you into hot water by asking, but what about your fraternity's ritual? Is it the same as/related to/derived from the nat'l fraternity from which you split or did you come up with something new? PM me if you'd prefer.

[Praecellemus]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Praecellemus,

Not trying to get you into hot water by asking, but what about your fraternity's ritual? Is it the same as/related to/derived from the nat'l fraternity from which you split or did you come up with something new? PM me if you'd prefer.

Here's the thing about that........
by definition ritual is a secret thing..... so if we do or dont its pretty much irrelevent as..........
1. A nat'l would never know it becuase well its secret....., and
2. if somehow they did would they risk exposing it by coming after us legally? I'm not a lawyer, but I would presume to do something about it, they would have to risk exposing publicly just what they are trying to protect...


But like I said above we are no longer the GLO we formally were.... (IMO, but this is debated often within the group) IMO one thing that makes you a GLO is your ritual..... and by that definition, we are no longer the former GLO, but a new group....
so that should answer your question.