Debates on the New Pope

[Rudey]

Originally posted by kstar
MysticCat- My grandmother was from Berlin, and her best childhood friend and her best friend's brother decided not to do the Hitler Youth, and never did. They still live in Berlin, and never mentioned having ot get a "waiver" to not join, apparently they told their parents that they didn't want to, and weren't forced at all. My grandmother didn't join the Hitler Youth, but that was all shortly before she left for a concentration camp.

And Rudey- I am a Jew against the current pope, but as I'm not Catholic, I don't feel that my opinion matters in the slightest. If this who the Catholic Cardinals want to lead, who am I to shun their traditions? It's not like they haven't been shunning mine for centuries.... oh, whoops!

You can be against anything and whatever you want. I would just wish you would be more educated and learned when it comes to making those decisions.

-Rudey

[RUgreek]

So the guy was a hitler youth briefly, so were tons of germans during his time. What was he, like 12 when he was in it? Big woop, you can't get all up in arms about this guy before he gets a chance to do his job. If he was Austrian, maybe there would be reason to worry, but I think his life and devotion to the church and the fact that the cardinals picked him should be reason enough to give this guy some leeway.

He's the friggin' pope, I just don't follow this whole Nazi crusade in the media...

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by kstar
MysticCat- My grandmother was from Berlin, and her best childhood friend and her best friend's brother decided not to do the Hitler Youth, and never did. They still live in Berlin, and never mentioned having ot get a "waiver" to not join, apparently they told their parents that they didn't want to, and weren't forced at all.

Well, obviously I can't speak to the specifics of that nor argue with them. They were there, I wasn't. All I have to go on is that every historical account I have read on the subject has said that joining the Hitler Youth was compulsary after 1936. If they say they didn't have to join, I have no basis on which to doubt them.

I don't think, however, that their personal experiences necessarily prove that the historical accounts are wrong about membership being compulsary, but rather would assume that, for some reason, they were able to avoid compulsary membership. In other words, their experiences don't necessarily disprove the rule but show exceptions to the rule.

I would assume that there is always the possibility that complusary participation was more rigorously enforced in some parts of Germany, or even in parts of cities like Berlin, than in others. I also wouldn't be surprised if it was more rigorously enforced among the children of members of certain professions and particular social groups than others.

Also, I wonder if it's possible that some who say they didn't "join" really mean they didn't "participate." It would not strike me as surprising if the practice was to enroll kids in the Hitler Youth whether they liked it or not (or knew it or not) and whether they actively participated or not.

[Rudey]

New Pope Hailed for Strong Jewish Ties:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...=1078113566627

Of course nobody will know what will happen until it happens.

-Rudey

[kstar]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
Well, obviously I can't speak to the specifics of that nor argue with them. They were there, I wasn't. All I have to go on is that every historical account I have read on the subject has said that joining the Hitler Youth was compulsary after 1936. If they say they didn't have to join, I have no basis on which to doubt them.

I don't think, however, that their personal experiences necessarily prove that the historical accounts are wrong about membership being compulsary, but rather would assume that, for some reason, they were able to avoid compulsary membership. In other words, their experiences don't necessarily disprove the rule but show exceptions to the rule.

I would assume that there is always the possibility that complusary participation was more rigorously enforced in some parts of Germany, or even in parts of cities like Berlin, than in others. I also wouldn't be surprised if it was more rigorously enforced among the children of members of certain professions and particular social groups than others.

Also, I wonder if it's possible that some who say they didn't "join" really mean they didn't "participate." It would not strike me as surprising if the practice was to enroll kids in the Hitler Youth whether they liked it or not (or knew it or not) and whether they actively participated or not.

Well, they could very well be exceptions to the rule, and for all I know, they might have been enrolled but never informed of this. They did say that if their father had been a party member they would have had to join and participate, but he wasn't.

As to profession and areas of cities/ the country: They were professor's children, as were my grandmother and her siblings, maybe since the profession was considered more subversive and liberal, they didn't try to recruit those children?

[SmartBlondeGPhB]

Originally posted by valkyrie
Here's another question. I can understand the desire some Catholics have for the church to be more progressive and change with the times. But why? Is it concern for the well-being of the church or is it something else? I guess what I want to understand but don't is why people stay with the church when they don't agree with it on so many issues. Do most people stay in the religion in which they were raised no matter what? Is it more of a cultural thing than a religious thing? Are you Catholic even if you don't go to church or pray or follow the "rules" as they exist now? If so, why?

I'm just fascinated by religion in general, but I think my concept of religion is very different from that of most people. I was raised protestant (I was confirmed and all that and used to go to church somewhat regularly on occasion) but eventually I realized that I just don't believe in 90% of the stuff that goes with being Christian, so I no longer consider myself such. I want to understand what makes some people leave when they don't agree and some people stay when they don't agree.

Basically, I disagree with the Catholic Church on quite a bit of issues. But in addition, I no longer feel it's very relevant to my life. My relationship is between God and I and I don't need the Catholic Church to dictate it to me. God knows what I've done whether or not I make a point of telling him (i.e., going to Church).

So I just choose to be a non-practicing Catholic after 18 years of Catholic schools, weekly church and heavy involvement.

Why haven't I just left? Well, I just haven't gotten around to it. I haven't taken the time to find somewhere else that I would fit in better. It's just not that important.

But yes, I do wish that the Church would modernize a bit and realize that the world we live in now is a world that was never envisioned during Jesus's time. Women are held at a MUCH higher standard than they were in biblical times and that should at least be taken into account.

A number of Catholics I know (my family mostly) are mostly annoyed by the centralized power and the pulling back from things that Vatican II opened up.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by kstar
As to profession and areas of cities/ the country: They were professor's children, as were my grandmother and her siblings, maybe since the profession was considered more subversive and liberal, they didn't try to recruit those children?

Seems quite possible to me. Often, academics were not big Nazi-fans, which is why many of them left the country.

[AlphaSigOU]

Originally posted by kstar
Well, they could very well be exceptions to the rule, and for all I know, they might have been enrolled but never informed of this. They did say that if their father had been a party member they would have had to join and participate, but he wasn't.

As to profession and areas of cities/ the country: They were professor's children, as were my grandmother and her siblings, maybe since the profession was considered more subversive and liberal, they didn't try to recruit those children?

Correctamundo... totalitarian and fascist governments can't stand academia and intelligentsia - can't have any freethinkers subvert the gospel spouted from the party line.

Along with the Hitler Youth requirement to be racially suitable, the children and his or her family had to be politically reliable as well.