School Vouchers

Originally posted by Munchkin03
Um, maybe because there are more people who practice more religions?

Maybe because the widespread discrimination towards Catholics and Jews in this country has simmered down--if only just a bit?

On an unrelated note, I thought Catholic grade schools were usually pretty reasonable. I know that Catholic schoolteachers get paid considerably less than their public school counterparts, and even those at non-religious independent schools.

Um maybe I was just kidding..............

Do you agree with people sending their children to Catholic (or Jewish or Muslim or any religion, for that matter) schools simply because they feel the discipline etc is better, and not because they believe in any of the tenets of the faith - and in fact, might be completely against it?

My parents sent me to a private Catholic high school and we are independant Baptists, I mean we're talking complete opposite ends of the Christianity spectrum, Jesus is probably the only common thread between the two. I don't think it's wrong, I was better prepared for college and not everyone there was Catholic. They didn't care, they'd take anyone's money!!!

[WCUgirl]

*bump*

Voucher battle heads to court

The Florida Supreme Court will hear Bush vs. Holmes this week, with many educational and religious issues in the balance.
By RON MATUS, Times Staff Writer
Published June 6, 2005

Call it a culture war showdown.

Competing factions will square off over race, religion and education Tuesday when they argue the school voucher case before the Florida Supreme Court.

At direct issue in Bush vs. Holmes is Florida's Opportunity Scholarships program, created by Gov. Jeb Bush in 1999 to allow children in failing public schools to attend private schools at state expense. The court's decision, which could come before school starts in August, will immediately affect about 700 children using the vouchers.

But much more is hanging in the balance, including thorny questions about how to improve public schools and where to draw the line between church and state.

Both sides are predicting doomsday if they lose.

If vouchers go down, supporters say a host of other state programs with links to religious organizations could fall, including the wildly popular Bright Futures scholarships for college students and the state's fledgling prekindergarten program.

Meanwhile, voucher opponents say court approval for Opportunity Scholarships would open the door to "universal vouchers" - vouchers for anybody and everybody - leading to the demise of public schools.

In one corner is Bush, a Republican who has never hesitated to push controversial school initiatives. His supporters include a long list of conservative think tanks and legal foundations.

In the other corner: the National Education Association, which is the nation's largest teachers union and a pillar of the Democratic Party. It is backed by a who's who of liberal groups, including the NAACP, the American Civil Liberties Union and the American Jewish Congress.

Legal experts say the fight is impossible to handicap. Florida's high court rarely deals with church-state issues, so there are few rulings to analyze for patterns. And two of the seven justices are recent appointees.

The court's track record is "so skimpy that anything I or anyone else says is almost purely speculative," says Steve Gey, a professor of constitutional law at Florida State University.

Bush vs. Holmes isn't likely to plow new legal ground nationally. The U.S. Supreme Court sanctioned vouchers in 2002. And vouchers remain an issue in Florida only because the state Constitution has different - and some say more restrictive - language than the U.S. Constitution.

But the fight in Florida still has enormous symbolic value.

The Florida program is the first and only statewide voucher program in the nation - the "crown jewel of school choice programs," says Clinton Bolick, head of the Alliance for School Choice in Phoenix.

To have it struck down, he says, "would be a very stinging defeat."

Link

[moe.ron]

If school voucher is allowed, can I sent my imaginary son to the School for the Advancement of Satanic Studies?

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by moe.ron
If school voucher is allowed, can I sent my imaginary son to the School for the Advancement of Satanic Studies?

If Satan offers an accredited program, then I'm sure you can.

If the vouchers can be used for Christian schools, then you can also use them for other faith-based schools, just as long as they meet the state's criteria.

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
If Satan offers an accredited program, then I'm sure you can.

If the vouchers can be used for Christian schools, then you can also use them for other faith-based schools, just as long as they meet the state's criteria.

What do we do when we are left with bad schools with bad students only?

I guess anyone can answer it. I'm just not sure how you could counter that. The good students go to where the good schools with the good teachers and high funding are. So how do you del with what's left?

-Rudey

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Rudey
What do we do when we are left with bad schools with bad students only?

I guess anyone can answer it. I'm just not sure how you could counter that. The good students go to where the good schools with the good teachers and high funding are. So how do you del with what's left?

-Rudey

Actually, I agree with you. In general I don't support school vouchers because I firmly believe that it does take away from public schools, leaving them with no incentive to do better.

The issue isn't a Christian or religious one, but about how we can reform our public school system. I know some folks hate to hear this, but I firmly believe that the downward spiral happened when discipline was taken out of the public school system. Coupled with lack of parental guidance/concern, it left teachers with no way to foster respect for who they are and their job nor with an effective way how to nip troublemakes in the bud from jump.

I mean seriously, its a sad day when grown people have to call the police to restrain a 5 year old child, because of fear of being accused of abuse/harm (because now, teachers can not touch or handle students even if its to protect themselves from harm).

This is just one of many factors though.

[Tom Earp]

Make all schools Private.

Take away the Courts decession to say give them more money. School Districts depend on tax money from Citizens of said County. I dont have any kids but pay for the Local School/Jr. College Tax. Why?

Allow Teachers to beat the hell out of little shits who disrupt classes or place them in detention. Screw the ACLU!

Make Children Mind Now as they will be the leaders in the future!

MAYBE!

[Rudey]

Originally posted by Honeykiss1974
Actually, I agree with you. In general I don't support school vouchers because I firmly believe that it does take away from public schools, leaving them with no incentive to do better.

The issue isn't a Christian or religious one, but about how we can reform our public school system. I know some folks hate to hear this, but I firmly believe that the downward spiral happened when discipline was taken out of the public school system. Coupled with lack of parental guidance/concern, it left teachers with no way to foster respect for who they are and their job nor with an effective way how to nip troublemakes in the bud from jump.

I mean seriously, its a sad day when grown people have to call the police to restrain a 5 year old child, because of fear of being accused of abuse/harm (because now, teachers can not touch or handle students even if its to protect themselves from harm).

This is just one of many factors though.

I don't know. I saw West Side Story. I don't think they knew how to discipline kids back then.

-Rudey

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally posted by Rudey
I don't know. I saw West Side Story. I don't think they knew how to discipline kids back then.

-Rudey

Of course someone who needs a good spanking would think that.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Rudey
What do we do when we are left with bad schools with bad students only?

I guess anyone can answer it. I'm just not sure how you could counter that. The good students go to where the good schools with the good teachers and high funding are. So how do you del with what's left?

-Rudey

Almost all of the bad schools that currently exist are public. They don't have to compete. If they had to compete they would either improve or go out of business.

As far as the "bad kids," that's usually more of an issue of bad parents.

[WCUgirl]

Florida Supreme Court Declares Vouchers Unconstitutional

By BILL KACZOR
Associated Press Writer

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- The Florida Supreme Court struck down the state's voucher system that allows some children to attend private schools at taxpayer expense, saying it violates the state constitution's requirement of a uniform system of free public schools.

Thursday's 5-2 opinion struck down the Opportunity Scholarship Program, championed by Gov. Jeb Bush, which was the nation's first statewide system of school vouchers. About 700 children statewide are using the program to attend a private or parochial school after transferring from a public school the state considers to be failing.

Chief Justice Barbara Pariente, writing for the majority, said the program "diverts public dollars into separate private systems parallel to and in competition with the free public schools," which are the sole means set out in the state constitution for educating Florida children.

Private schools also are not uniform when compared with each other or the public system and they are exempt from many standards imposed by law on public schools, such as mandatory testing, she added.

Justices Kenneth Bell and Raoul Cantero, both appointed by Bush, dissented.

The 1999 law previously had been ruled unconstitutional by the 1st District Court of Appeal on grounds that it violated the separation of church and state in the Florida Constitution.

[hoosier]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Almost all of the bad schools that currently exist are public. They don't have to compete. If they had to compete they would either improve or go out of business.

Competition has made almost every part of the US economy better, and created a standard of living unmatched ever anywhere.

I think competition (in stuff besides basketball) would promote improvement.

The parts of the US economy where there is not a free market and competition are the problem ones. Medical care is an example.

Doctors, hospitals, specialists don't have to compete, don't post prices, and don't advertise, and their costs are growing unchecked.

A part of medicine that does compete, like lasik eye surgery, is getting better and getting cheaper.

I suspect, for example, that if doctors had to compete and publicize the cost of tonsilectomies, they would get better and cheaper.

Let schools compete, let schools publicize their plans and programs, and let schools improve.

[AKA_Monet]

Hoosier-

I disagree with your analogy of medical care. The issue is not about an elective surgery, like lasik, the issue whether not to relieve a subdural hematoma, like the one in Ariel Sharon's head, to enable LIFE. Medical doctors have made an "oath" once they graduated from medical school to "secure that life"--at least in accredited US and Canadian and some European school's they have... The concept of "best practices" is always implored upon residents and fellows. When I attend a "grand rounds", it amazes me how much MD's must know to do their jobs effectively to ensure the best care for their patients.

The issue is many patients, most of them not educated about their healthcare, come in with insurmoutable problems--basically too late to have effective treatment. But our current medical system and establishment at least tries to help people--even when their health outcome is poor. With advancing technology, health might improve. This does not include some malpractice that does go on, but with better patient advocacy and compliancy, healthcare can be improved.

As with the case of Mr. Sharon, he was obviously overweight. He had probably been told to slowdown by his medical doctors. He probably was under a lot of stress and for his age, that kind of stress will kill. I think his MD's are probably doing the best they know how to do, given the circumstances--i.e. he came in a hour away after having another stroke that may have been massive...

So I do not think you can equate having a free market with a "trickle down theory of economy" for either medicine or education. In my view, call me a whatever you want, but both should be a basic human right to have in a so-called pluralistic democracy.

I have played nicely with you and I expect the same kind of discourse from you. If you fail to place nice in the "sandbox", I will take counter-measures--because "one in glass houses ought not throw stones..."

[hoosier]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
Hoosier-

I disagree with your analogy of medical care. The issue is not about an elective surgery, like lasik, the issue whether not to relieve a subdural hematoma, like the one in Ariel Sharon's head, to enable LIFE. ...

I have played nicely with you and I expect the same kind of discourse from you. If you fail to place nice in the "sandbox", I will take counter-measures--because "one in glass houses ought not throw stones..."

I am mister nice, a cuddly teddy bear in real life. My new condo is mostly stone and stucco.

Some parts of education, and some parts of medicine, could be improved by allowing competition. Some parts are not suitable for competition (emergency brain surgery, parts of special education, etc.).

An expensive part of medical care, ambulance service, is high priced because the govt. usually limits the service to one company. If you needed an ambulance ride home from the hospital, and called three services asking for a price, you could choose the cheapest (and the services might offer you a deal: "after 6:30, we offer a $50 discount", etc.)

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by PhiPsiRuss
Almost all of the bad schools that currently exist are public.

I don't know about that one. In fact, I call complete and utter bullshit.

Where my parents live, everyone knows that the private schools (with the exception of the Catholic School) are all fly-by-night places that are the last resort for kids who get kicked out of our (generally excellent) public school system. None of them are nearly as rigorous as the public schools, so most of the "graduates" end up going to places like Liberty and Bob Jones. In the past four years, however, the public high schools have sent their graduates to all of the Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Northwestern, Chicago, and all of the great state schools.