Another Colorado student found dead in a fraternity house...

[IvySpice]

I strongly disagree with the U.S. drinking age, but I just don't accept comparisons between this type of law-breaking and the actions of suffragettes or civil rights protestors. What an insult to heroes who risked their lives to make this country better.

Just because someone's breaking a silly law doesn't mean they're protesting it. The drinking behavior we're talking about is breathtakingly selfish. The people involved have no political aims, and the law-breaking they're doing is a lot more comparable to taking illegal drugs than it is to sitting in at a lunch counter. Heroin addicts who die of overdoses are not martyrs to any political movement, and neither is this Chi Psi pledge.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
Alcohol education should realistically address the situations that students will face. They should learn the signs of alcohol poisoning...

...I really think that ignorance about the symptoms of alcohol poisoning and fear of punishment were contributing factors in the deaths of these students and could contribute to even more deaths.

Just a few weeks ago, I would have agreed.

I think that present alcohol education is good and should continue. It should also start earlier. Maybe middle school.

However it occurred to me that it's kind of like Driver Ed. A lot of kids take it -- and ignore it's lessons, break the law, and die in traffic accidents.

I really think this needs to be a peer pressure thing.

[33girl]

Originally posted by IvySpice
I strongly disagree with the U.S. drinking age, but I just don't accept comparisons between this type of law-breaking and the actions of suffragettes or civil rights protestors. What an insult to heroes who risked their lives to make this country better.

You've missed my point.

I said that obeying the law does not equal following your values, because the law is often wrong.

I definitely don't think that 18 year olds drinking beer = civil rights protestors.

[Munchkin03]

Originally posted by Peaches-n-Cream
I think that the drinking age should be lowered to 18. I agree with 33girl about the discriminatory nature of a drinking age of 21.

Alcohol education should realistically address the situations that students will face. They should learn the signs of alcohol poisoning. Students should be encouraged to call for medical assistance without the fear of punishment if a friend gets extremely drunk or overdoses. I really think that ignorance about the symptoms of alcohol poisoning and fear of punishment were contributing factors in the deaths of these students and could contribute to even more deaths.

I agree completely.

In a lot of schools, the health education does do a great job of informing students of the dangers of alcohol. The students know this stuff, back and forth--they can tell you how long it will take your body to metabolize a LI Iced Tea, and they know what to do when a friend is throwing up sick. They all got "responsible drinking" lectures from their parents.

What it comes down to is that "all bets are off" when some of these kids get to college. They know what to do, but many think it will never happen to them. The kids who go to schools that don't punish for severe intoxication might be in a better position to protect themselves, but they're really not much better.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
I really think this needs to be a peer pressure thing.

You've said this a few times, but I still don't really understand it. Why would anybody expect someone's peers to teach him right from wrong, which it sounds like you're implying -- peers should be telling college students not to drink too much. Am I understanding correctly?

Don't most parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids to think independently and NOT give in to peer pressure? If a kid isn't developed enough to think independently, how could he be developed enough to tell good (don't drink too much) from bad (here, try this heroin it's fun) peer pressure?

I think that expecting other kids to teach your kids right from wrong is a cop out -- if your kid needs peer pressure to make a good decision, whose kids are supposed to take responsibility? I stand by my earlier statement that if people have kids who can't function on their own, they shouldn't let them move out of the house until they can.

[adpiucf]

I agree 100% that it is a parent's job to educate his/her child about the dangers that await outside the family home: alcohol/drug abuse, unwanted pregnancy, STI's, self-defense, cooking and doing your own laundry, cleaning house, peer pressure, self respect and self discipline.

College is a place to fail. It is a place to make lots of mistakes: to try on new hats, take classes you know you'll be terrible at, to assume positions of leadership or thought that might intrigue you. It's the beginning of your adult like, and the more mistakes you make in college, the wiser and more well-equpped you will be when you leave those ivy-covered buildings with your degree. But it IS a parent's responsibility to provide his/her child with the general framework of common sense and self-respect to keep that child from engaging in self-destructive behaviors like binge drinking when the parent at lasts hands his/her precious child over to that university and it's sacred halls of learning.

I don't think anyone willfully drinks himself to death, nor is it the intention of his peers to kill him. Parents, educate your kids about the dangers of self-destructive behaviors. Lobby your child's school, your church, etc. to provide mandatory classes on self-respect and consequences that include attending AA meetings or shocking photos that will snap that child into reality.

Binge drinking won't go away. But with preventative maintenance beginning in the home, and continued awareness through schools and campus organization presentations (including SADD, Greek Councils, Student Council, etc.), more students will be prepared.

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by valkyrie
You've said this a few times, but I still don't really understand it. Why would anybody expect someone's peers to teach him right from wrong, which it sounds like you're implying -- peers should be telling college students not to drink too much. Am I understanding correctly?

Yes, you are understanding me correctly.

Also, please understand that I'm not trying to absolve parents from their (our) duty.

But, how well did you listen to your parents at that age? Who had the biggest influence on you -- your friends or your parents?

I grew up in a fundamentalist protestant family where drinking was absolutely forbidden. It didn't work.

How many parents try to educate their kids about pre-marital sex -- either to abstain or be safe? What's the teen pregnancy rate?

Going back to driver's ed -- I don't think many parents are teaching their kids to drag race or drive recklessly, but teen driving statistics are awful. (buy insurance for a boy under 25)

We are a drug free household, but still one of our three ended up in rehab. Hey, all the other jocks did it. The other two are drug free.

Just one more time for the record. I am not saying that people shouldn't drink. One more time, I believe the drinking age for beer should be lowered to 18. One more time, I understand the rights of passage for college aged students.

(But again, one more time, it is against the law as it now stands and is a serious Risk Management issue for our chapters.)

So, what I believe is that if given that college students will drink, no matter what their parents say, it is important that they somehow find some path to moderation. My experience (as a former person that age -- believe it or not we do remember -- and as the father of three) is that most students are more likely to listen to a voice of moderation that is their own age and from their peer group than from their parents.

[33girl]

In other words make getting too overly drunk the equivalent of wearing stonewashed jeans and having a Donny & Marie poster hanging in your dorm room.

But like valkyrie said, you can't expect this to only work for good and not for evil. Maybe the same "peers" who convince your daughter that it's bad to get too drunk will also convince her that it's cool to throw up after every meal or shun those who are a different religion.

[hoosier]

One great change has occured in the US over the past 25 years - due to education - and that is smoking.

We used to look on smokers as "cool", and now we look on them as stupid.

The poor and the stupid are now smoking (not to offend Tom Earp) cigarettes.

Hopefully an educational campaign about campus alcohol abuse could have similar success.

[valkyrie]

I don't know -- I agree that smoking is stupid, but there are plenty of otherwise intelligent people who smoke. I don't get it, but it's not uncommon.

[James]

I would say that if you are a reponsible parent you would have gotten your child drunk numerous times in different types of alcohol in a controlled setting in order to show the effects of varying amounts of alcohol on them

To take it a step futher you might even want to get the child drunk every night for a couple weeks during vacation and wake them up at 7am every morning to show how hard it can be to function after excessive drinking and no sleep.

That way they know that they will be unlikely to do that and keep grades really high or maintain a high quality of feeling good.

If you don't do stuff like that how are you preparing your child for whats out there?

[DeltAlum]

Originally posted by 33girl
In other words make getting too overly drunk the equivalent of wearing stonewashed jeans and having a Donny & Marie poster hanging in your dorm room.

But like valkyrie said, you can't expect this to only work for good and not for evil. Maybe the same "peers" who convince your daughter that it's bad to get too drunk will also convince her that it's cool to throw up after every meal or shun those who are a different religion.

The first sentence is pretty funny. Thankfully, that was a generation between me and my kids, I think.

Peer can be one person or a group. I think that overall a group will probably gravitate somewhat toward moderation. Not always, but generally. I wouldn't worry too much that everyone in a chapter (or any other group) would be in the "throw up after every meal" mode.

James -- my friend, my buddy -- forget it. You can't prepare your kids for everything. When you start a new job, you learn from your boss or other employees -- your peers. Your education gives you the basics, then you learn specifics by watching and emulating.

Somewhat like the smoking argument, when it became "less cool" to smoke, the use of tobacco dropped off in the younger agegroups. If moderate members of chapters bring pressure to not drink heavily, maybe binge drinking will drop off as well.

[angelove]

I think this peer pressure concept would work well in most sororities in which they have "standards" boards or something similar. It would have to be a combination of things - sisters being on the lookout for others who are on the verge of drinking too much and cutting her off or removing her from the situation, or if it happens when no one else is around, calling the member up before the standards board and reprimanding her for her behavior. (See the "drinking in letters" thread for the attitudes on this - it doesn't matter if you're wearing your letters or not, on many campuses you'll be identified as the sloppy drunk XYZ.) The member would be aware before she goes out drinking that she is at risk of a reprimand if she drinks too much - and if the behavior continues, getting kicked out of her org. This helps punish the individual for her behavior rather than the organization, and helps protect the organization. It would also apply regardless of whether the member is of legal drinking age or not. Not sure how it would work in fraternities, though ...

[adpiucf]

Originally posted by James
I would say that if you are a reponsible parent you would have gotten your child drunk numerous times in different types of alcohol in a controlled setting in order to show the effects of varying amounts of alcohol on them

To take it a step futher you might even want to get the child drunk every night for a couple weeks during vacation and wake them up at 7am every morning to show how hard it can be to function after excessive drinking and no sleep.

That way they know that they will be unlikely to do that and keep grades really high or maintain a high quality of feeling good.

If you don't do stuff like that how are you preparing your child for whats out there?

Great idea in theory, but to wilfully poison a minor in your custody-- that's child abuse and social services will come and take your child away, throw you in jail and strip you of your parental rights faster than you can say, "Captain Morgan."

[astroAPhi]

Originally posted by James
To take it a step futher you might even want to get the child drunk every night for a couple weeks during vacation and wake them up at 7am every morning to show how hard it can be to function after excessive drinking and no sleep.

If my parents did that to me, I'd report them to the cops for providing alcohol to a minor.